Burgeoning plague of incels - apparently

[EASUYA]

This is quite the article from UnHerd; It seems to be putting the responsibility to prevent a future of terrorism on women settling.

unherd.com/2020/06/incels-could-become-the-new-vikings/

My synopsis of the article

• Vikings were raiders, who were driven to such behavior due to a lack of women.
• China and India may be facing a similar problem due to sex selective births leading to an excess of men.
• The west is also facing a similar problem due to women unwilling to marry down in an ever equal society. This leaves a sub group of men who aren't getting any.
• Incels make enthusiastic terrorists (ISIS recruits being promised wives / slaves).
• Preventing this is a feminist issue

The notion that it is a good idea to marry a working class man because working class jobs are somehow more flexible and less demanding so will leave more time for childcare is delusional.

I would reiterate though that there are really two different things going on here.

Incels are typically these guys with personality problems. maybe they are assholes or sometimes they seem to have MH or other issues that mean they are not able to really find or relate to a sexual partner. These same kinds of issues make them likely to fall into this conspiracy theory stuff that they find online.

When you have a place like China, there are significantly fewer women, lots of guys who are relatively normal may not find wives. But chances are they will be the men who make less money or are less attractive. It's not useful to tell them to clean themselves up or get a better job. And it's understandable they might end up kind of resentful about the whole situation. They shouldn't resent the women, but it would be natural to feel like women were looking at all the exterior trappings of success rather than valuing partners as a person if you saw it happening time after time.

From the article:

‘The number of American men under 30 who have never had sex tripled between 2008 and 2018 — but hasn’t risen nearly as rapidly for women. The only plausible explanation is that women are still having sex, but they’re competing for a smaller pool of desirable men and leaving the rest on the shelf.‘

It isn’t the only plausible explanation. A far more plausible one is that many women in their twenties are prepared to date older men and men in their twenties are not prepared to date older women.

That leaves more men than women in their teens and twenties with no sexual partnera and more women than men in their thirties, forties, fifties and so on with no sexual partners.

@serenada

www.economist.com/china/2017/11/04/demand-for-wives-in-china-endangers-women-who-live-on-its-borders

www.nytimes.com/2019/08/17/world/asia/china-bride-trafficking.html

‘They shouldn't resent the women, but it would be natural to feel like women were looking at all the exterior trappings of success rather than valuing partners as a person if you saw it happening time after time.‘

In a country which has experienced one of the greatest famines in living memory and which has widespread poverty you would be insane not to choose a husband who had the exterior trappings of success if such a man was an option.

All our fault as always. Men will never take responsibility for themselves or their failures so they play the blame game. After spending a lot of time on the internet, I don't think I could ever trust a man again. For all I know he could be posting about rape fantasies. It's not worth the risk and I think women should just give up on them entirely. They're showing their asses now more than they ever did before.

Somehow criminals, sex offenders, drug dealers etc manage to find a gf/wife
Because unlike what the article claims, it’s not just money that makes a man attractive. It’s also looks, personality and a sense of being strong and powerful which can be expressed in ways other than wealth.

she has to be a trophy woman. that suggests to me that it is their relationship with other men that is at the heart of it
To accept a less attractive woman would be to admit to being a second class beta male and accepting “less” than the alpha males. From what I understand about incel culture there’s a strong hatred of alpha males who are more attractive than them, a hatred of women who desire alpha males, whilst still wishing to be the alpha male and attempting to emulate what they see as alpha behaviour.

Not RTFT but did read the article.

Whole thing sounds like a man problem to me.

@backseatcookers

Vikings get a bad rap. Everyone imagines they were all berserkers, many were farmers.

NAVALT

That cracked me up! snort

far more plausible one is that many women in their twenties are prepared to date older men and men in their twenties are not prepared to date older women
This is spot on. Assuming men are attracted to looks and women are attracted to money and power, it makes sense that younger women and older men like each other. Leaving younger men and older women on the shelf. This is exactly why many of those who are “incel” as young men suddenly get partners when they’re about 30 and earn more money.

Thanks @WhereYouLeftIt

Heartbreaking.

@Stripesgalore

‘They shouldn't resent the women, but it would be natural to feel like women were looking at all the exterior trappings of success rather than valuing partners as a person if you saw it happening time after time.‘

In a country which has experienced one of the greatest famines in living memory and which has widespread poverty you would be insane not to choose a husband who had the exterior trappings of success if such a man was an option.

Sure, and actually I am not a romantic, I think people often choose a spouse with the kind of lifestyle and stability they want in mind, even if they don't really admit it to themselves.

At the same time, what happens when you have a whole class of men who can't find a spouse? They may already feel economically exploited and politically disenfranchised, and you add no family life to that? From a purely strategic level, family life can be very stabilising for people, especially ones who already have reason to be unhappy. It gives them something to care and work for, and it gives them something to lose. The anger should be directed elsewhere but it's not just sex resentment, it's mixed with class resentment which is a powerful mix, and it would be pretty surprising if some didn't become directed to the women themselves.

@Davodia

far more plausible one is that many women in their twenties are prepared to date older men and men in their twenties are not prepared to date older women This is spot on. Assuming men are attracted to looks and women are attracted to money and power, it makes sense that younger women and older men like each other. Leaving younger men and older women on the shelf. This is exactly why many of those who are “incel” as young men suddenly get partners when they’re about 30 and earn more money.

I think there is some truth to this as well. However, it doesn't really put men or women in a great light. If someone really buys into the idea that this is what romantic love and sex comes down to no wonder they become cynical.

But those of us older women who are ‘on the shelf’ are quite happily sitting up here being single. Not looking for an alpha male or indeed any man and not ranting at men for not providing me with my entitlement to sexual on tap.

It’s the entitlement that’s the issue not the potential partnership mismatch.

@Binterested

Maybe we should

Too busy on the old lady thread on S&B detailing my love for Virago and Persephone books, pearls, lemon curd and proper bread & butter

family life can be very stabilising for people
My DH hires employees and he likes married people and parents. They’re much more stable, less likely to turn up with a hangover, less likely to create awkwardness by asking colleagues out, more likely to spend the evening putting children to bed and get up early the next day, more likely to have financial commitments so they are therefore more dedicated to their job.

‘At the same time, what happens when you have a whole class of men who can't find a spouse? They may already feel economically exploited and politically disenfranchised, and you add no family life to that?’

In the context of China I would expect exactly what it is happening - increased trafficking of women and girls and civil unrest. There isn’t really a way to resolve that for the current generation because the sex ratio is so unbalanced. There might be a way for neighbouring countries to prevent trafficking through increased anti-trafficking policies and enforcement, if those countries value their female citizens.

Where this doesn’t translate is in Western countries. I have an attractive late teens daughter. She has received no offers of family life from men in their teens or twenties, incel or otherwise.

One of the major changes in monogamy is that men in their teens, twenties and even thirties don’t feel ready to get married and start married life. My grandparents were married in their teens. My parents in their early twenties. I was married in my mid twenties. My daughter doesn’t really want to date men her own age because if the relationship continues it is highly unlikely those men will be ready to get married in a few years or maybe even in ten years.

And I have seen so many women end up with no kids due to being dumped for younger women after long relationships in their twenties.

So incels in the West may want Alex, but they are not generally offering family life.

Alex?!! Sex.

‘However, it doesn't really put men or women in a great light. If someone really buys into the idea that this is what romantic love and sex comes down to no wonder they become cynical.‘

Well, yes, but the poster was just simplifying. Women don’t just want power and wealth. They also like looks, but they consider a wider age range of men to be attractive. And it isn’t really power and wealth it is stability - a man who has a steady job, friends, hobbies, a roof over his head seems like a stable person with whom to raise children.

So I am not sure what we mean by romance, but the better bet is are we a compatible couple to raise children and create a happy family life?

I think incels in the West are created by entitlement and greed. Incels in China and India perhaps are more created? By the massive sex disparity as well as the traditional patriarchal pressures. But then in places in Japan were you have large swathes of single men by choice. I don't think the problem of single men has one size fits all solution. In places like China and India, the obvious solution would be to actually value female children but whilst waiting for that cultural shift perhaps a solution would be a relaxing of the one child policy or even some form of tax credit to encourage female children. Kind of a bribe if you will? It's a vile idea but it may save some baby girls.

As for the West, porn really needs to be tackled and this culture of entitlement needs to be got rid of. As I said earlier though it would take other men to do it. I shan't be holding my breath.

When I was in my 20's I dated a guy a few times. I knew he lived with his parents, that wasn't an issue. I had only just moved out myself, and not managing very well to be honest. However when we were messaging and he moaned he was hungry, but was waiting for his mum to come from work and cook him something all interest faded.

My flat mate had an American friend visiting that couldn't figure out where to put his rubbish because his mum always clears the table and does such things.

Those were the kind of things that put us off men our age back then.

As for India , China and similar there is no easy fix,definitely not a quick one. Maybe in a few decades if their attitudes towards women and baby girls change.

@serenada

I house shared with a man who turned out to be an incel (and turned the other man in that direction, too).

He hit ion every woman who moved in. You could sense it. Started to get controlling over where people had been. Did feck all cleaning but tried to deman the other peoples cleaning wasn't up to his standards. Tried to 'train' us. Had a shocking temper and victim complex. Had mysterious back problem caused by one leg being shorter than the other although teh NHS didn't believe this so he had to go to a Harley St doctor (who also didn't agree). Real 'man of the people' type. Hated the educated and the privileged but forced his gran into a care home to sign over her house to him before she died so he could get the money now and got a significant inheritance.

Overweight, poor diet, an obsession with his own flatulence, lazy, no skills/qualifications or significant work history. Told a pack of lies about everything.

Started going out to Thailand on his own for 'the sun'. Came back each time with more outrageous behaviour. Moved out there two years ago and married his new Thai girlfriend.

Apparently very happy.

I give up. These men can buy what they want.

Sounds like a real catch.

Well, yes but he has got what he wants, hasn't he?