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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Burgeoning plague of incels - apparently

168 replies

EASUYA · 26/06/2020 10:27

This is quite the article from UnHerd; It seems to be putting the responsibility to prevent a future of terrorism on women settling.

unherd.com/2020/06/incels-could-become-the-new-vikings/

My synopsis of the article

  • Vikings were raiders, who were driven to such behavior due to a lack of women.
  • China and India may be facing a similar problem due to sex selective births leading to an excess of men.
  • The west is also facing a similar problem due to women unwilling to marry down in an ever equal society. This leaves a sub group of men who aren't getting any.
  • Incels make enthusiastic terrorists (ISIS recruits being promised wives / slaves).
  • Preventing this is a feminist issue
OP posts:
startrek90 · 26/06/2020 15:28

I met an incel once, on a blind date. He was attractive (on the surface at least) and was a self declared 'nice guy'. He was anything but nice (please don't judge me to harshly for not picking up on the red flags straight away, I was very young, stupid and had poor boundaries and no self esteem). He treated me appallingly. He was rude, insulting and talked over me. He thought I should be grateful that he asked me out (I had a very low paying job, I couldn't afford university like he could). Told me that i should lose weight if I wanted to be with him (I was a size 8 at the time). He was so utterly foul that even in my stupid, weak state I wanted nothing to do with him. He was outraged at the end of the evening when I refused to sleep with him and said I never wanted to go out again. The rage! I was genuinely frightened at the time.

These Incels attitude is the problem, not their attractiveness or bank balance. When I met my husband he had no job and no money but was polite, decent and respectful.

These Incels need a man to set the straight. They aren't going to listen to women so why anyone thinks women could sort it is beyond me.

Much like the issue of male violence against trans women/gay men/gender non conforming men. The kind of men who think nothing of hurting a trans woman or effeminate man are usually also the sort of men who attack/rape/disrespect women. They don't care what women have to say, they do care what other men have to say.

This is not a woman's or feminist problem to fix imo.

MsTSwift · 26/06/2020 15:30

The mindset doesn’t appear to see women as actual people. It’s very odd and sinister. You don’t get single women raging against men - the entitlement here is staggering. Hate that they make their problems our problems

serenada · 26/06/2020 15:35

See, the sad thing for me is that decent men haven't already got onboard this and sorted it out.

Ditto, my very nice landlady who thought we should work with our housemate as he was depressed.

Davodia · 26/06/2020 15:55

a woman doing well in a demanding career might in theory have an easier life if she married a self-employed plasterer
In my experience this strategy wouldn’t work because the man rarely takes on family responsibilities regardless of who earns the most.

My impression is that many men call themselves 'incels' when what they actually mean is that they can't get a woman of the type (i.e. young, slim, attractive) they want
I’ve known a few men who insist that women aren’t interested in them, who continually strike out with attractive women, whilst ignoring interested women who are of equivalent attractiveness to themselves. By the age of about 30 some of these men had increased their wealth enough to attract the women they wanted but previously couldn’t get. The rest continue to call themselves incels despite having options available.

The west is also facing a similar problem due to women unwilling to marry down
I think it’s a fallacy to assume this is about wealth. A man who looks like Brad Pitt will have no shortage of partners even if he works on the till in Aldi. But a man has to have something - money, good looks, confidence and personality - something that makes him desirable. If he has nothing going for him he’s going to struggle to attract anyone.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 26/06/2020 16:04

Somehow criminals, sex offenders, drug dealers etc manage to find a gf/wife. Hell someone I knew "romanced" his now wife FROM prison.

They want women to drop their standards, but they won't drop theirs.
They think being "nice" is currency they can exchange for sex.
They resent being "nice".
They think sex is a right .
They can't appreciate the value of friendship between different sexes.They view it as a tragedy.
They hate women.

Wtf is there to be attracted to?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 26/06/2020 16:10

According to QI last night those incels sweethearts could do with acting just like those Vikings...

Apparently they enticed wives and maidens alike through being clean, regular washing themselves, their clothes, brushing and dressing their hair and being pleasant!

I'm sure those behaviours would be equally enticing these days!

serenada · 26/06/2020 16:11

There is no sense of women as friends, whether in the past or as part of a relationship, is there?

chipperfish · 26/06/2020 16:14

Fucks sake 2020
Was trying to think what would come after murder hornets Hmm

EASUYA · 26/06/2020 16:15

I agree with all the comments that this is a problem caused by entitlement and in-cells failing to identify their own failings and undertake some self-improvement. But just because their reasons are wrong or immoral, doesn't meant the negative consequences wont happen, and that women won't be negatively affected.

I'm concerned less about why they think this and more about how much of an issue this will be, both in the UK and globally. I did a bit more research and it looks like china and India have 70 million excess men. 70 million!

OP posts:
hypernormal · 26/06/2020 16:34

When I did online dating I went on a few dates with men in their mid-late 20s. I might have been unlucky, with the incel attitude seemed to be incredibly prevalent - negging, very full of themselves, assuming all women like to be dominated in social interaction as well as sexually, to the point of being downright abusive. Part of me thinks they were trying to be witty or show off but failing miserably, but needless to say I never met up with any of these men again. All were quite attractive, some had good jobs. Whilst they wouldn't strictly be classed as incels, I fear that this way of thinking that's spread through incel-type websites and porn has influenced a whole generation of men and how they think about and treat women.

serenada · 26/06/2020 16:47

@hypernormal

Yes, I agree. Normal guys I have met who have turned a certain way that doesn't fit with who they are at heart, I think.

I don't think men have ever forgiven us for discovering that we discuss things about the relationship to other women. Not all women, of course.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 26/06/2020 16:57

Normal guys I have met who have turned a certain way that doesn't fit with who they are at heart, I think.

I'm sorry but I disagree. What did happen was that they have found their voice and encouragement to be who they are at heart. That and the fact that keeping up the facade at least for a while, stopped giving them the desired effects, so why bother?

I don't think men have ever forgiven us for discovering that we discuss things about the relationship to other women.

What's there to forgive?

serenada · 26/06/2020 17:05

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

Maybe you are right - it was a facade and once they got porn 24/7 where they didn't need to make an effort, they gave up. I would agree with that, actually.

B1rdbra1n · 26/06/2020 17:20

These Incels need a man to set them straight
I agree, why arent the decent men stepping up and providing good role models that incels-in-waiting can identify with and will want to emulate?

Could it be that the decent men also prefer to promote the line that women ought to absorb and placate these 'rouge males'?
Perhaps the decent men resist taking on roles in which they are expected to nurture?

Imnobody4 · 26/06/2020 17:23

I agree OP the situation in India and China is horrendous. It will be more than likely to end with more trafficking of women, forced prostitution. There are already suggestions that polyandry should be legalised.
Not to mention the the power of men as a majority to enforce changes they wish. Women will be sacrificed to social stability.

serenada · 26/06/2020 17:28

There are plenty of decent men that I know but they are likely to get shouted down by the more aggressive types. They are dads, too now and starting to see the effect on their daughters and play a more active role so maybe, in time, they will but I think they probabbly just don't want any association with them.

It has seeped through though.

terryleather · 26/06/2020 17:43

I agree with the pp that said they should just shag each other - it's been claimed on here before that males are generally not as good as females at recognising sex so they could date the trancels. Win-win.

PearPickingPorky · 26/06/2020 17:50

But a man has to have something - money, good looks, confidence and personality - something that makes him desirable. If he has nothing going for him he’s going to struggle to attract anyone.

Women have to have something too, and the list you've put for men would apply just as much to women too, I think. Except that so many fewer women have/can earn money the way some men can.

WhatAWonderfulDay · 26/06/2020 18:18

But a man has to have something - money, good looks, confidence and personality - something that makes him desirable. If he has nothing going for him he’s going to struggle to attract anyone.

And all these men would be happy with a fat, older, ugly, witches (substitute derogatory comment of choice)?? Somehow I don't think so.

It's beauty and the beast - he can be a beast but she must be beautiful. And she has to look beyond the surface and not be shallow. But he is owed a perfect partner.

serenada · 26/06/2020 18:20

Yes - they don't want an overweight, unattractive woman or a normal woman - she has to be a trophy woman. that suggests to me that it is their relationship with other men that is at the heart of it - they want the equivalent of a porsche - status symbol stuff. Who is it really to impress?

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 26/06/2020 18:24

I'm on a meme website. The same men that moan about not having gfs,being virgins,being friendzoned etc are also laughing at overweight women, women that don't dress "right", women with heavy makeup etc while constantly wishing for a particular type with big breasts or whatever.

Pelleas · 26/06/2020 18:28

And all these men would be happy with a fat, older, ugly, witches (substitute derogatory comment of choice)?? Somehow I don't think so.

Exactly - they wouldn't. They're not involuntarily celibate - they're celibate because they don't fancy the type of woman it would be realistic for them to aim at. And unlike decent men, they are not prepared to look beneath the surface at a woman's personality, or to see qualities such as intelligence or success as anything but a threat to their own egos.

Goosefoot · 26/06/2020 18:33

@B1rdbra1n

All Peterson is saying and he gives great amounts of licence to those who would like to believe that it is woman's job to solve and absorb the problem of of 'spare men'
Can you be more specific about what you mean?

Enforced monogamy is a term from anthropology. Saying there are different social outcomes when you have different arrangements/customs/laws around marriage isn't the same as telling individual women they need to solve the problem of spare men.

TehBewilderness · 26/06/2020 18:34

War is the traditional solution that older men adopt to dispose of excess males in their society.
Men in China and India have already begun abducting women from surrounding countries.

serenada · 26/06/2020 18:41

Men in China and India have already begun abducting women from surrounding countries.

@TehBewilderness

Have you any articles on this?

I wondered what would happen with policies to get more girls into education in some countries - who fills the gap that they filled? Without positive action, I suspect another girl will fill it.

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