How can you be transgender and non-binary?

[KingofDinobots]

Ok I’m genuinely confused about this.

An author called Fox Fisher has left JK Rowlings literary agency over transgender rights.

According to the Times article (sorry no share token) Fox identifies as a “transgender non-binary person” and uses the pronoun they.

I just....don’t get it? I mean if you’re non-binary you’re saying you don’t identify as either of the two genders, so how you can you also say you are not the gender you were “assigned” at birth?

Anybody explain this one to me?

@GreytExpectations

actually it's only been an issue on here. I'm part of other online communities and have been able to have very intellectual and challenging discussions with many people who both agree and disagree with my opinions. The difference is, they actually engage with you as opposed to the mumsnet way of "shutting down" the amount of times I see someone told to leave a thread because they have a different opinion on here is astonishing, but that's why I choose to discuss these topics on other forums. A lot of time there are references mumsnet to provide a bit of lighthearted relief.

Only an issue on here?!

So you genuinely haven't seen women, JKR included, being told to suck dick / choke on dick by trans activists who don't share their opinion?

Have you seen women telling trans people to choke on a dick? Or on anything else for that matter?

Have you seen women subjecting trans people to violent sexually charged threats like that?

Really?

Surely you're intelligent enough to keep up to date on such an important issue and know what Twitter is. If you know what Twitter is the you can acknowledge the threats to women that I've flagged above.

To not do so, and equate women's attitude towards trans people with the violent threats and rhetoric that TRAs (to be clear, not all trans people - the trans people I know are reasonable, brilliant, kind people who hate the way TRAs make their life harder by claiming to speak for them) direct towards women who disagree with their stance.

exclusionary
This made me laugh out loud. The type of feminism that includes men?
You can't be non-binary and trans. It's an oxymoron. They cancel each other out. All the verbal juggling in the world won't alter that.

The difference is, they actually engage with you as opposed to the mumsnet way of "shutting down" the amount of times I see someone told to leave a thread because they have a different opinion on here is astonishing, but that's why I choose to discuss these topics on other forums. A lot of time there are references mumsnet to provide a bit of lighthearted relief.

Go boil ya head.

I will no doubt see my comment mentioned in PINK NEWS as mumsnetter threats to boil trans people given how much they love to twist the truth.

You don't get to determine who is or isn't a feminist

Ahh but its ok for a bunch of males to determine who is and isn't female......

True last

But greyt
Someone has to stand up for people who have problems which stem from their reproductive biology.

Or do they. Perhaps there no problems at all and those cervix havers are just bleating on about nothing. Bunch of Karen's.

If you don't exclude males from feminism, the result is that you exclude many females from it. You exclude vulnerable women and girls from their sex-based rights. Maybe that's not the intent, but it's the effect in practice.

I think fox identifies as trans because he has changed physical aspects of his body’s sex characteristics with hormones (testosterone) and surgery away from his female starting point to a deliberately more masculine appearance/ voice.

Non binary because he doesn’t identify as either a man or a woman.

I’ve been googling.

Ok so Fox was born a woman, has undergone medical transition so now has secondary male sexual characteristics, but now feels that they are not fully a man or fully a woman so is non-binary.

Fox is in a relationship with Owl Fisher who was born a man, had medical transition so now has secondary female sex characteristics, but also now feels that they are non-binary.

It all sounds very complicated. But I have learnt something from this thread and now the trans non-binary thing makes a bit more sense to me so thank you all :)

Hmm I'm not sure that helps me understand. What does 'medical transition' mean?

Actually Grey it is you that is exclusionary. If you include males as in female single sex spaces and intimate services, then I and other victims of sexual trauma are excluded, because there is no way we could use them with males present.

Thank you for that. Don't think your 'inclusion' makes a good person. I have suffered years of pain, flashbacks and trauma, like many victims of abuse. Don't we deserve some consideration? Some privacy? And then you come on here finger wagging and calling us bigots. You need to take a long hard look at your priorities.

Yes, that's an explanation which satisfies an understanding of what Fox and Owl may think and feel. And, as adults, their choices are their own.

However, the problems for all of us start if those who believe in and enact this choice for themselves seek to compel the rest of us to believe too.

Meaning we have to change society socially and legally to fit their personal definition and meaning, and also have to change the definition and intrinsic meaning of who we are.

@MoltoAgitato

Generalised assumptions about groups of teens transitioning = offensive. Generalised assumptions about Mumsnet hive mind = not offensive.

Gotcha

Good one! I am offended about the assumptions that Mumsnet is “shutting down “ discussions on trans subjects, because that certainly isn’t the case. There isn’t a hive mind on here , we can think for ourselves. Have the feminist chat posters all fallen in with “ the wrong crowd” on here..., I don’t think so.

Ok so Fox was born a woman, has undergone medical transition so now has secondary male sexual characteristics, but now feels that they are not fully a man or fully a woman so is non-binary.

I don’t wish to be rude or hurtful to Fox (or Owl, who is effectively in the same position) - or to mis-state their position in terms of surgery etc - but doesn’t this illustrate the madness of things quite well?

1. ‘Feeling’ one’s sex doesn’t match one’s gender;
2. Going through a lot of difficult, painful & expensive changes to transition (‘change sex’), on the basis of a feeling about ‘gender’;
3. Realising that perhaps one doesn’t ‘feel’ like the other gender after all;
4. Now with a body that’s biologically one sex but treated with surgery & hormones to ‘become’ the other sex, and not ‘feeling’ either male or female.
5. Deciding okay, I must be non-binary then.

Wouldn’t it make more sense just to be a GC person? In Fox’s case, she could simply adopt an androgynous look, name and persona. I think ‘they’ pronouns are stupid but Fox could definitely use them and I’m sure people would comply.

Am I really missing something here? And I would note that although it’s secondary, the changes Fox has been through must have been difficult/distressing for her loved ones too. Surely all this can be avoided?

@OldQueen1969

Just googled the difference between non-binary and genderfluid.... am none the wiser but understand it's something to do with an umbrella.....

I've got 3 umbrellas

Am I really missing something here?

Fox and Owl are invested in many ways in upholding the trans narrative.

Meaning we have to change society socially and legally to fit their personal definition and meaning, and also have to change the definition and intrinsic meaning of who we are.

And adopt a definition that forces us to affirm the stereotypes that have oppressed us, and give up language that enables us to fight for our rights . I know women are supposed to be 'nice', but it really shouldn't be surprising that we are angry.

Based on the transgender bible of wiki gender.

The transgender umbrella includes anyone who does not identify with the gender that matches their sex. This not only includes transgender binary- those who identify with the gender opposite their sex, but also transgender nonbinary which are people who either move between genders (genderfluid) or anyone who identifies with no gender at all (agender).

So most of us can be included as transgender nonbinary then because we don't identify with gender at all?

Except... how can you believe that gender identity is the most important thing that makes a person who they are, much more important than sex and chromosomes and all that stuff, yet also believe that you don't have a gender identity?