How can you be transgender and non-binary?

[KingofDinobots]

Ok I’m genuinely confused about this.

An author called Fox Fisher has left JK Rowlings literary agency over transgender rights.

According to the Times article (sorry no share token) Fox identifies as a “transgender non-binary person” and uses the pronoun they.

I just....don’t get it? I mean if you’re non-binary you’re saying you don’t identify as either of the two genders, so how you can you also say you are not the gender you were “assigned” at birth?

Anybody explain this one to me?

What has offended me are the posts mocking both transgendered and non binary people as attention seeking. I have every damn right to be offended by that, who the hell are you to tell me how I'm allowed to feel?

Let me just explain my original point, just because you don't understand something it doesn't give you or anyone else the right to mock it.

Why won't you help us to understand it then?

@GreytExpectations you can be as offended as you like, just don’t expect anyone else to care.

What’s wrong with wanting attention? I identify as an attention seeker. I feel hurt.

And yes, i do know what it means. You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

But I'm not interested in discussing this on a thread full of people dismissing others and mocking them due to their lack of understanding and generalised assumptions. Maybe when I actually see a post on Mumsnet where there aren't loads of offensive comments thrown at the trans community I will actually engage in my opinion, that day has yet to come.

@GreytExpectations
To be honest, I think I understand this pretty well.
Non binary= Not conforming to either gender. Transgender= Identifying as a gender that doesn't align with your sex.

Non binary transperson = Identifying as something different than the gender you were been born into as a result of your sex whilst not identifying with either gender.

It means nothing. My comments are not a result of not understanding, they're a result of me not agreeing with the idea that "Non binary transperson" makes any logical sense. If you or anyone else would like to share a different perspective, I'd be glad to hear it.

If someone told me that they identified as that, I would not, of course, tell them that I thought it was ridiculous. But that would merely be politeness.
If someone tells me that they believe the world was made in six days, I wouldn't tell them I thought it was ridiculous but would I, when discussing the concept of a six day creation in a relevant situation (if there is a discussion, whether in real life or online, about it, which people have agreed to participate in) neglect to point out the myriad flaws in the idea? No.

[quote TheSingingKettle49]@GreytExpectations you can be as offended as you like, just don’t expect anyone else to care.[/quote]
Considering the vile nature of posts on here I don't expect anyone to care on Mumsnet. It's no surprise some advertisers have pulled out of a place like this.

The "do I get a prize?" comment is extremely offensive by suggesting trans people do it for attention

It shouldn't be difficult to understand why feminists who have long believed that gender is oppressive find the concept of 'non-binary' offensive - it relies on the idea that most people identify with a binary gender.

Having said that, it should also be possible to respect other people's right to hold different beliefs - right up until the point that they try to impose their beliefs on others, which is what Fox Fisher has tried to do.

How can someone so sure of their gender identification as to go through hormonal and surgical transition to feel "right" then suddenly decide that they are neither gender, that's what I'd like to know.

Expediency?

Generalised assumptions about groups of teens transitioning = offensive.
Generalised assumptions about Mumsnet hive mind = not offensive.

Gotcha

If you or anyone else would like to share a different perspective, I'd be glad to hear it.

Nice joke. Let's be honest, nobody on a thread about the trans community on the feminist board of Mumsnet, want to hear a different perspective if it doesn't agree with their's. Look at how every other thread on the subject goes.

I have every damn right to be offended by that, who the hell are you to tell me how I'm allowed to feel?

I don't have any right to tell you how you are allowed to feel.

I do have a right to discuss different ideologies and belief systems.

Just googled the difference between non-binary and genderfluid.... am none the wiser but understand it's something to do with an umbrella.....

I think I understand that agender means no gender or neutral, while non-binary and genderfluid may encompass a sliding scale of all the apparently identified genders that now exist.

So Trans is moving away from one imposed gender, but if no other gender is chosen or it's not one of the two most common then we're in non-binary territory, and may move between several genders, but agender rejects the notion of gender altogether...... I think.....

I was trying not to have a drink today but after that I am eyeing the vodka bottle quite hard and I have a bit of a headache.

@MoltoAgitato

Generalised assumptions about groups of teens transitioning = offensive. Generalised assumptions about Mumsnet hive mind = not offensive.

Gotcha

Great, glad you understand.

Mine isn't generalised because I can actually read all the trans threads on here which prove my point, also mumsnet aren't a community that are subject to the level of abuse that the trans community face. Its ridiculous that you even compare the two.

Dont forget molto that kids know their gender three and should be affirmed but teenagers who stand up for their sex based rights can't possibly know what they are doing and are lead by parents.

Same way someone got booted off Twitter for saying there that gender used to be personalities and there are million but then mermaids quote there could be as many genders as there are people in the world and its revolutionary

@merrymouse

I have every damn right to be offended by that, who the hell are you to tell me how I'm allowed to feel?

I don't have any right to tell you how you are allowed to feel.

I do have a right to discuss different ideologies and belief systems.

Except you won't be "discussing". You and others are just going to pile on and demand I answer your questions, and when I don't answer the questions the way you want me to you will then "call me out" as a TRA who doesn't care about women's safety. I've seen it and experienced the same cycle on Mumsnet happen enough to know how it will go down.

@Aposterhasnoname absolutely brilliant!

You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

But then in what way are you trans if you believe genders dont exist? Generally curious and keen to learn more, but that doesn't include just agreeing with things that don't make sense just because it's so.

All this offense, frankly reminds me of some reactions as regards religions. Just because some people claim to genuinely and sincerely believe in the concepts of non-binary etc and find various combinations of words useful to describe themselves, does not mean that the rest of us who don't share such beliefs aren't free to mock, or wonder why people believe such stuff. The difference, I guess between mocking gender beliefs and religious beliefs, is that religious beliefs at least have a much longer history, so that creating religions is a definitely human thing. Whereas this particular set of beliefs about gender/sex is relatively new. Fitting gender beliefs into a wider context, I think that mockery is a perfectly reasonable response when various definitions make no sense, or are mutually contradictory. This is not quite the same as mocking those who find it useful to believe in such things, because I think why they find it useful to believe such stuff is a much more interesting question. I'm sure those who claim an inner sense of the existence of god have as much validity as those who claim an inherent inner sense of gender, although the gender one appears to be less stable from what I have heard...................

And yes, i do know what it means. You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

But trans is all about 'gender identity'. If you don't identify with either gender then what are you 'transitioning' from and to?

By the way 'ur all vile' doesn't cut it round here these days.

Can I ask about schools?

In my area, there are still a number of schools which segregate by sex. I believe that in the girls' school, they have a number of pupils who identify as trans (and non-binary) and accommodate them.

They don't admit natal males who identify as female.

Similarly, at the boys' school, they don't admit natal females who identify as male.

So they seem to be including transboys within the "girl" umbrella and trans girls within the "boy" umbrella.

Why is this ok? I think it's probably the right thing to do (in the absence of a big pot of money to refurbish the schools to enable them to provide facilities for both sexes) - a girl shouldn't be forced to leave a school she is happy at if she decides she is non-binary or trans. But it doesn't align with trans women are women. Though I've not heard of anyone campaigning against this.

@GreytExpectations

If you or anyone else would like to share a different perspective, I'd be glad to hear it.

Nice joke. Let's be honest, nobody on a thread about the trans community on the feminist board of Mumsnet, want to hear a different perspective if it doesn't agree with their's. Look at how every other thread on the subject goes.

I can't help but be reminded of the Brexit threads when leavers complained that they couldn't post on here as everyone piled on them. What seemed to be happening in most cases is that a leaver would post something which contained an assertion that was categorically incorrect but when people pointed it out, they cried bullying.

You are going to be challenged. People are not just going to nod along with something they vehemently disagree with to please a stranger online. That's not the same as people not wanting to hear your views, you just haven't been successful in convincing them.

I get that if you've got a thread with dozens of people with an opposing opinion to yours and each of them is posting to point out which part of what you said they disagree with and you end up with a hundred posts disagreeing with you before you have time to reply, it's intimidating. But that's the issue with online discussions, they are not like conversations you have in real life.

@Highperbolay

And yes, i do know what it means. You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

But trans is all about 'gender identity'. If you don't identify with either gender then what are you 'transitioning' from and to?

By the way 'ur all vile' doesn't cut it round here these days.

And I don't care if you think it doesn't "cut it" I don't need you to care to express my views.

@IagoWithABlackberry actually it's only been an issue on here. I'm part of other online communities and have been able to have very intellectual and challenging discussions with many people who both agree and disagree with my opinions. The difference is, they actually engage with you as opposed to the mumsnet way of "shutting down" the amount of times I see someone told to leave a thread because they have a different opinion on here is astonishing, but that's why I choose to discuss these topics on other forums. A lot of time there are references mumsnet to provide a bit of lighthearted relief.

Let's face it folks, it's the comparing gender beliefs to religious beliefs (but less tolerant), that is the real crime. Gender is real and true because people say it is. We aren't supposed to say ' But that is only your own subjective belief, you are free to believe what you want yourself, and I'm free not to believe it.' Nope, gender atheism not allowed cos it is equivalent to offending all those with deeply-held , sincere, gender beliefs.Unlike (most) religions, gender believers seem to require blanket acceptance by everyone.........I guess maybe the religious feeling that us non-believers are all going to hell or wherever, or are just very unhappy, allows if not necessitates allowing non-belief? After all, how can you be saved or special unless some are not saved?
But gender-believers, seems their 'faith' isn't as robust and requires everyone else to believe as well, or their own self-image collapses. (I could witter on about collapse of the wave-function and quantum theory, which does have a valid concept of something which can simultaneously be this and that, both and neither at the same time........)