How can you be transgender and non-binary?

[KingofDinobots]

Ok I’m genuinely confused about this.

An author called Fox Fisher has left JK Rowlings literary agency over transgender rights.

According to the Times article (sorry no share token) Fox identifies as a “transgender non-binary person” and uses the pronoun they.

I just....don’t get it? I mean if you’re non-binary you’re saying you don’t identify as either of the two genders, so how you can you also say you are not the gender you were “assigned” at birth?

Anybody explain this one to me?

You are going to be challenged. People are not just going to nod along with something they vehemently disagree with to please a stranger online. That's not the same as people not wanting to hear your views, you just haven't been successful in convincing them.

This.

I'm always for hearing different views on this issie, but what people don't seem to understand is that if they come on here and give another view that view will be challenged. If they can back it up with further argument and evidence then people may well listen. If their next step, after they are challenged, is to say 'well youre all just a bunch of bigots, this place is vile', then no, they probably won't be listened to.

the key indicator is if you can take offence at the drop of a hat, demand free speech is only opinions that you agree with and stomp your feet if you don’t get your own way, says SingingKettle.

And right on cue, in comes GreytExpectations, complaining So many offensive things said on this thread...

Applause! Perfect timing.

With an extra hurrah for Greyt's follow-up jibe No surprise really, this is the mumsnet hive mind after all. Which of course is not at all offensive, because insulting women isn't offensive.

And I don't care if you think it doesn't "cut it" I don't need you to care to express my views.

You haven't answered my question though.

In fact the majority of your posting on this thread is to tell us how awful we are.

I'll ask the question again:

But trans is all about 'gender identity'. If you don't identify with either gender then what are you 'transitioning' from and to?

You and others are just going to pile on and demand I answer your questions

I wouldn't call you out as a TRA who doesn't care about women's safety. I might think you weren't making a very strong argument, and that therefore your opinions aren't a good basis for public policy.

What I wouldn't do is demand that your employers make a public statement denouncing your views.

@ Thinkingabout1t You forgot the bit about trans people being more vulnerable than a group of women who (possibly, as it is mumsnet) have given birth, because we all know the equality act is very much based on a game of Top Trumps.

You are going to be challenged. People are not just going to nod along with something they vehemently disagree with to please a stranger online.

Yes - that is how mumsnet works, whether the subject is parking or breastfeeding or equality law.

These people exist, and you are just ignorant to them, not everyone is straight, and is comfortable with their assigned gender.

Ignorant!

These people exist, and you are just ignorant to them, not everyone is straight, and is comfortable with their assigned gender

Okay but that's not what is being talked about. How can you be non binary and transgender?

These people exist, and you are just ignorant to them, not everyone is straight, and is comfortable with their assigned gender.

Could you expand on 'comfortable with their assigned gender' please? I am a woman, and I am far from comfortable with the gender expectations that society assigns to me because of my sex.

@Michllcn Sorry, who is assigning gender? Do they have quotas?

I mean I’m not particularly comfortable with the sex stereotypes of women wearing dresses and being modest, sexy and nurturing and men liking corduroy trousers, trains and maths so I could get down with dismantling those stereotypes.

These people exist, and you are just ignorant to them, not everyone is straight, and is comfortable with their assigned gender

I know these people exist, I just don't subscribe to the same belief system as they do and no one is assigned a gender at birth. Gender stereotypes should be confined to history, but gender ideology enforces them.

These people exist, and you are just ignorant to them, not everyone is straight, and is comfortable with their assigned gender.

If you think gender critical feminists are comfortable with their assigned gender, you need to think more about what 'gender critical feminist' means. You also need to ask yourself why you are assuming that a gender critical feminist would be straight.

@GreytExpectations
Could you point me towards some of these other platforms? Because outside of Mumsnet, my online experience of disagreeing with people around transgenderism has been being called a TERF, receiving threats of violence, told that what I am espousing is akin to "literal genocide"...
So if there's anywhere I could have a calm, measured debate, I'd quite like to know where.

I would dare to say that FWR has become a place of mirth about the contradictions, self obsession and outlandish bollocks inherent in gender identity. It's full of low hanging fruit. Fnar Fnar.

If your identity is dependent on humorlessness then you can choose to not read it.

I was just thinking about this the other day! It’s surely not possible to be both? You can’t transition from one gender to another if you never identified with either to begin with, right?

Sorry but non-binary is such bullshit. Everybody is non-binary. Nobody is completely feminine or completely masculine. It’s really just a way for very boring, ordinary people to feel like they’re special.

@Highperbolay

And yes, i do know what it means. You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

But trans is all about 'gender identity'. If you don't identify with either gender then what are you 'transitioning' from and to?

By the way 'ur all vile' doesn't cut it round here these days.

I'd also like to hear @GreytExpectations answer to this question. The problem is you get plenty of posters who make claims but when asked to explain further we get told we wouldn't understand and we're only left to assume they can't.

You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist

Ok, so are you saying they’re transitioning from one sex to another but don’t subscribe to gender stereotypes relating to the two sexes?

If you are, then surely most people are non-binary - ie don’t subscribe to sex-based stereotypes?

I still don't get why you have to transition to one of the binary options

You can transition away from Male, yet accept you are not female hence none binary makes sense to me

It may be the heat

Well I can see the posts I reported have been removed. So my point is proven, unless anyone would like to discuss why they still don't think the posts were offensive?

How can someone so sure of their gender identification as to go through hormonal and surgical transition to feel "right" then suddenly decide that they are neither gender, that's what I'd like to know.

I left an online community which I'd been an active part of for 15 years, knew loads of people IRL, over some highly acrimonious trans threads. Another long term member was a medically transitioned trans woman and notorious merailer. A very unhappy person, as I understood it, with long-standing mental health issues. Anyway, after years of literal violence if people didn't accept she was a woman in exactly the same way we were, a couple of posters came out as non binary* and then she started posting thoughts of "she" pronouns not being quite right, maybe she was non binary after all. My eyes, they rolled involuntarily clean out of my head.

*one of whom married their long term opposite sex partner wearing a wholly gender conforming white dress.

@GreytExpectations I don’t think anyone did say they weren’t offensive, just that it doesn’t matter if you’re offended, your offence is your problem. I’m afraid you’ve not proven anything except you use the same tactics as the TRAs of trying to shut down free speech by claiming offence.

The whole thing is all just about fashion and hairstyles which is frankly bizarre. If I wear a pair of jeans or trousers, am I a man now? Absolutely not but it's how these people think. If I cut my hair really short apparently I'd be a man because according to them, a haircut = omg your genitals have changed. These lot have a mental illness that is being encouraged. No other mental illness is encouraged in this way. Funny that, isn't it? It'll be classed as "men being men" soon enough I reckon.

So instead of answering any legitimate questions keep bleating on about the few offensive posts. Guessing there isn't an actual answer.