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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can you be transgender and non-binary?

154 replies

KingofDinobots · 24/06/2020 16:54

Ok I’m genuinely confused about this.

An author called Fox Fisher has left JK Rowlings literary agency over transgender rights.

According to the Times article (sorry no share token) Fox identifies as a “transgender non-binary person” and uses the pronoun they.

I just....don’t get it? I mean if you’re non-binary you’re saying you don’t identify as either of the two genders, so how you can you also say you are not the gender you were “assigned” at birth?

Anybody explain this one to me?

OP posts:
SciFiScream · 24/06/2020 19:32

Anyone who is non-binary is automatically considered trans as NB is under the trans umbrella by the Stonewall definition.

Non-binary is a person who doesn't identify with the sex stereotypes associated with the sex observed at birth.

As there are only two human sexes (female/male) that is a binary.

I very deliberately said sex stereotypes instead of gender as there are only two sexes thus the non-binary part but there are between 70-100 genders.

I even saw a young trans advocate saying that there could be as many genders as there are people on the planet.

I think this automatically makes me an NB trans person as I have never associated with the sex stereotypes of my birth.

SpaghettiBalonzaise · 24/06/2020 19:33

Transgender is an umbrella term for identifying as a gender that is different to the sex you were determined to be at birth.
So a non-binary person would come under that umbrella, just as a transgender woman or transgender man would.

TornadoOfSouls · 24/06/2020 19:38

You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

Come again?

Does anyone seriously think this means anything?

whereorwhere · 24/06/2020 19:43

Transgender is an umbrella term for identifying as a gender that is different to the sex you were determined to be at birth.
So a non-binary person would come under that umbrella, just as a transgender woman or transgender man would.

That makes sense but then why use both words. Surely you can just use trans or non binary as you are saying they mean the same thing? I thought - perhaps wrongly - that trans meant you were born one sex but felt you should have been another, but as no one can actually change sex you just follow gender stereotypes to identify as near to that sez as possible. Whereas non binary meant you felt neither male or female or a bit of both. I thought they were very differently things. I am also confused

TornadoOfSouls · 24/06/2020 19:45

Transgender is an umbrella term for identifying as a gender that is different to the sex you were determined to be at birth.
So a non-binary person would come under that umbrella, just as a transgender woman or transgender man would.

No, this doesn’t make sense either.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 24/06/2020 19:45

arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin is pointless if you don't believe in angels.
Bingo!

CharlieParley · 24/06/2020 19:45

Thats a good question, and something that baffled me for quite some time. Having looked into this, it appears there are a number of reasons for the non-binary transgender identification:

Non-binary is now much more popular with teens (as my teens and their friends tell it, plain trans is not that cool anymore). But they firmly understand this to be a trans identity, because they've all been taught that ever-expanding trans umbrella.

Non-binary requires no changes whatsoever, which far more sections of society accept than when one identifies as the other sex, whom most people still assume and therefore expect to be transsexual individuals who have medically transitioned all the way to full genital surgery. But with non-binary, there is no expectation as to expression, behaviour, hormone treatments or surgery.

In my view, this is a positive step as no one should ever feel they have to medically transition. If identifying as non-binary allows them to reject the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes society imposes on someone of their sex without feeling the need to make irreversible changes to their bodies, that is a good thing. (This is currently happening with a lot of young women and older girls, often bisexual or lesbian, who seek to escape the pressure society puts on women as to how they should look and behave.)

Non-binary plus trans is also a common path away from identifying fully as the other sex. This group is growing at the moment. Maybe it is a safer way to detransition as it avoids the hostile reactions many detransitioners receive from their own community. They haven't really detransitioner after all, they're still under the umbrella. But it's a good way to step back from the medical path.

Then there's the males who identify as non-binary and the other sex without ever having medically transitioned or identified purely as the other sex (who seem to be far more common than females who do so). The individuals that come to mind appear to want access to women's spaces while going about their lives virtually unchanged.

There's also a sizeable group of various ages that do it for attention and effect.

Others do it to be able to claim the protection they believe a trans identity entitles you to. There is currently nothing in the law that would protect a non-binary employee from being sacked for not conforming to say, strict dress codes at work for women, but there is for those who are even just proposing to undergo gender reassignment. I'm certain this has not yet been tested, but there is a reasonable assumption that there is no protection under the law unless one also claims a trans identity.

My view is that I don't care how people identify or dress or what gender-conforming or non-conformimg things they do. I simply do not believe that our minds and our bodies are two distinct entities that can be mismatched. That kind of metaphysical, quasi-religious belief is something others may adhere to if they wish and I respect their personal choice to do so, but as with my very religious Christian friends, I expect to have my right respected not to share this belief in transgender ideology and that I am not expected to suppress my disbelief or worse still forced to espouse a belief I do not share.

TehBewilderness · 24/06/2020 19:50

@KingofDinobots

Glad it’s not just me who’s confused! It just makes no sense at all.
Confusion is the purpose, I think. Sowing chaos and positioning yourself as the authority has been an effective control strategy for abusive males over the years in both personal and public life.
merrymouse · 24/06/2020 19:59

Well I can see the posts I reported have been removed. So my point is proven, unless anyone would like to discuss why they still don't think the posts were offensive?

You proved that Mumsnet took your concerns seriously. I'm not sure how that proves that Mumsnet is a hive mind or that you can't express your views on Mumsnet.

Shockedandbeffudled · 24/06/2020 20:00

This still throws up a problem regarding single sex spaces. Where do the non-binary, gender-fluid go if they are neither man nor woman?

The TRA refusal to accept a third space, surely makes these people unable to go anywhere. Are trans activists literally killing non-binary people?

TheSingingKettle49 · 24/06/2020 20:04

This still throws up a problem regarding single sex spaces. Where do the non-binary, gender-fluid go if they are neither man nor woman?

They go in the opposite one to whatever their biological reality, lest they be mistaken for being whatever sex they are.

FWRLurker · 24/06/2020 20:05

I asked this question at a Alphabet training at my job and I was told I am “fairly gender confirming” (I have long hair and was pants and a button down shirt) so therefore I’m cis.

whereorwhere · 24/06/2020 20:05

I agree with kettle - the more terms to describe someone's gender there are the more important it is to have a simple distinction - which is biological sex when it comes to sport and single sex spaces

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 24/06/2020 20:05

@GreytExpectations

Well I can see the posts I reported have been removed. So my point is proven, unless anyone would like to discuss why they still don't think the posts were offensive?
Still would like clarification on Highperbolay's question to you:

And yes, i do know what it means. You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

But trans is all about 'gender identity'. If you don't identify with either gender then what are you 'transitioning' from and to?

Thanks

whereorwhere · 24/06/2020 20:07

The third space is a good resolution for non bjnary and trans

Shockedandbeffudled · 24/06/2020 20:16

I know my last comment sounds a bit facetious, I don’t have a problem with someone declaring and feeling themselves non-binary. Understand it must be hard for people who feel they are outside the social construct of gender stereotype.

Unfortunately it does seem to be the trans movement who are keenest to push us in to women / not women boxes by our displays of acceptable femininity and presentation.

We do seem to have regressed in terms of hair, make-up, clothes in the past decade.

7Days · 24/06/2020 20:57

Good comment CharleyParley

Winesalot · 24/06/2020 20:59

I think this automatically makes me an NB trans person as I have never associated with the sex stereotypes of my birth.

I think that there might be a waiting list as I have met very few people who ‘confirm’ to their sex stereotype. That is what makes this so ill conceived. So many people qualify.

As I keep telling my daughter, why is one group trying to enforce gender stereotypes while another is seeking to defy them. As a young woman, I strove to join the action to get rid of stereotypes by changing society as a whole. To make it a better place for all. We didn’t get there though.

Why has it become so much about opting out rather than fighting to again get rid of restrictive roles and perceptions? Or, trying not to be cynical, is it really that this makes them feel ‘unique’ by buying into this ideology and they are happy to throw everyone else in the ‘conformists’ label under the delusion that the label must be true?

Highperbolay · 24/06/2020 20:59

Transgender is an umbrella term for identifying as a gender that is different to the sex you were determined to be at birth.
So a non-binary person would come under that umbrella, just as a transgender woman or transgender man would.

Transgender is a broad church as we know, also encompassing blokes who cross dress as a sexual fetish. And we have all seen the 'trans umbrella' with those awful 'cis' raindrops falling on top.

But that still doesn't explain how someone can be a 'non-binary trans man/woman'. Fox is female, has male on their passport but is 'non-binary'?

www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/articles/trans-non-binary-couple-fox-and-owl

Jess 'flashing my penis in public' Bradley, identifies as a 'non-binary trans woman'.

How can you be a 'trans woman' and 'non-binary'?

Winesalot · 24/06/2020 20:59

‘Conform’ not confirm.

Highperbolay · 24/06/2020 21:05

Yes, I agree that it would actually be good in a way if 'non-binary' became a big thing, and meant that boys and girls didn't feel that they had to conform to their own sex's gender stereotypes.

But this would only be a good thing if sex was still recognised and protected. Rather than situations we have had where people like Travis Alababza thinks it's an absolute breach of human rights when he, as an adult male, cannot use whichever changing room in Topshop he feels like using that day.

Helias · 24/06/2020 21:06

@GreytExpectations

What has offended me are the posts mocking both transgendered and non binary people as attention seeking. I have every damn right to be offended by that, who the hell are you to tell me how I'm allowed to feel?
This person may not be on the up. The term "transgendered" is offensive to most trans people.

I don't mean "melt down into a helpless puddle" offensive - that's a myth to make trans people look emotionally and mentally unstable. But most trans people (or anyone knowledgeable about and sympathetic to trans people) would never use it and would prefer it not be used.

Think about it - do you want to be called womaned, or gayed, or blacked, or Jewished, or deafed? No; you are who you are, no one imposed it on you. You didn't have a choice. This "transgendered" implies that people are being tricked or fooled into transitioning. If anyone is, or has been, I am sorry - but that's not "trans". Here's a fuller explanation of the problem, if anyone is interested: www.vox.com/2015/2/18/8055691/transgender-transgendered-tnr

I didn't report the post, as I'm confident any trans people who see it can handle it fine, and I think it should stay up so people can judge for themselves.

There are (unfortunately) plenty of random people out there caping for "trans rights" for their own unrelated purposes (obviously, misogyny is one). I think it's best not to take advice - or finger-wagging lectures - from anyone shady.

DickKerrLadies · 24/06/2020 21:11

And yes, i do know what it means. You can be trans whilst not identifying with either genders because in their mind they don't exist.

Gender doesn't exist in my mind either. I do not identify with either/any gender identity/role.

Mrskeats · 24/06/2020 21:24

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Rainallnight · 24/06/2020 21:36

I was baffled by this! Thank you for posting about it.