A query about third spaces

[SometimesLateAtNight]

When people talk about third spaces as a possible solution, do they generally mean that the third space is for anyone who cares to use it, or that the third space is reserved for trans persons only?

I thought I was about as peak trans-ed as I could get but I saw a post today about this issue and suddenly I can’t get past the third space thing seeming.... wrong. I’ll try and attach the post here.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself?

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone?

I always took it to be additional self contained facilities that could be used by everyone - for example dads out with their young daughters.

If transwomen are at risk of assault in the men's its because the men in there are homophobic or transphobic but if its extra would the violent men bother?

I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself

Can you please clarify what a genuine trans person is?

I think you summed it up perfectly in your last sentence.

I always took it to be additional self contained facilities that could be used by everyone - for example dads out with their young daughters

Same. Would be handy if they put baby changing facilities in this third space too.

A third space would be for those who weren't happy to use the space in line with their sex. So as a male bodied person, if you weren't comfortable in the gents for whatever reason, you would use it instead of using the ladies.
The option to use the facilities in line with your sex will remain, of course.

@LockdownLump

I always took it to be additional self contained facilities that could be used by everyone - for example dads out with their young daughters

Same. Would be handy if they put baby changing facilities in this third space too.

Yes, I always felt awful changing DD in disabled toilets because she was uncooperative so it took a lot longer than at home.

So, a unisex space, without demanding that the women's space becomes unisex.

We have gender neutral toilets here. Self enclosed, floor to ceiling doors etc.

So long as they co-exist with same sex provision ie women's loos, what's the problem?

Anyone, including transpeople, can use the gender neutral loos. Women can use the single sex loos if they'd rather. Ditto men for men's single sex loos. Everybody has a safe, private loo. Why is this so hard??!!

Women who are obsessed with trans safety can use the gender neutral one in their workplace too, to normalise the fact that the gender neutral loo isn't 'just' for transpeople.

Seriously, the problem isn't that this is a hard or difficult problem, the problem is fucking TWAW which removes the possibility of compromise before we even get started.

*LockdownLump

I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself

Can you please clarify what a genuine trans person is?*

Apologies if I’ve caused any offence. I suppose I was meaning, any person who is not using the third space or their new identity to gain access to women or for personal sexual kicks, but rather because they truly feel they are the opposite sex and live their lives in that way.

Thing is its fir them to sort that out isnt it?

Why do we have to?

Women fought for years to get womens spaces set up.

People with disabilities had to fight for facilities they could use.

There would be alot of support for their fight for a third space. We could have worked together to achieve that.

But no, they just wanted everyone elses stuff the effects on the people who's space it actually is.

Put the work in like everyone else had to.

I suppose I was meaning, any person who is not using the third space or their new identity to gain access to women or for personal sexual kicks, but rather because they truly feel they are the opposite sex and live their lives in that way.
So blame the ones who are doing it for sexual kicks. It's not for women to make it better for the ones being shat on.

I understand the point that transwomen won't be any safer in a unisex third space, because the men will be in there too. But how is that solved by removing women's toilets and making them all unisex? Surely it just means men can now go in there too?

Making all toilets unisex puts women at greater risk and doesn't put transwomen at any less risk by this argument. So it helps no one and puts women at risk.

I agree that it shouldn’t be women’s job to mop up the mess. I also don’t want my benefits to come at someone else’s cost, though. I definitely don’t accept that TWAW or that we should all shuffle over nicely and let biological males take whatever space they deem necessary... but I don’t relish the thought of the loss of dignity that using a third space meant exclusively for trans people would mean for some of those trans people.

It’s why I was asking if the third space WAS that or more just as some have said above an extra all welcome bathroom/changing room/whatever the case may be.

Why would it create a loss of dignity?

If it is a general anyone can use it toilet / changing room then loads of people will use it. When there is a unisex option now I sometimes use it. I'm not unusual. Sometimes one of the people using the unisex space might be trans. Why would they lose dignity?

but I don’t relish the thought of the loss of dignity that using a third space meant exclusively for trans people would mean for some of those trans people

Our sympathy, and guilt and kindness female socialisation is what helped get us here. We need to stop it.

They need to take it up with their so called allies. If they had kept their mouths shut and stopped wanting wearing a bikini for a bet to enable them access under the now ridiculously epansive trans umbrella then all those genuine transwomen would probably still be there while women looked the other way as it was less than 5000 people in the UK and hardly every was an issue.

It's the greedy selfish allies that have fucked it. Not women. We dont need to feel guilty

It makes complete sense to have toilets for females, for males, and unisex toilets, as PP said. Only the TRAs have a problem with that, which is strange because it would also be the best solution for the NBs and GFs who are, apparently, also valid.

It’s why I was asking if the third space WAS that or more just as some have said above an extra all welcome bathroom/changing room/whatever the case may be.

There has been no official proposals on what might constitute a potential third space. People are just throwing ideas around. It could mean anything.

@TorkTorkBam a unisex bathroom wouldn’t create any loss of dignity in my opinion. I think that perhaps a bathroom designated for trans persons would, as you would essentially be outing yourself by entering. That’s why I was hoping for clarity on what people mean when they speak about third spaces.

I do disagree with a PP above that all unisex is the way to go, though. It seems obvious to me that this only increases my risk as a woman, whether cubicles are floor to ceiling or not. It’s more time in what’s often an isolated area in close contact with men I don’t know and therefore don’t trust.

... any person who is not using the third space or their new identity to gain access to women or for personal sexual kicks... but I don’t relish the thought of the loss of dignity that using a third space meant exclusively for trans people would mean for some of those trans people

There are women who do not relish the loss of dignity that using a space with any man who claimed to identify as a women would mean. And truly I do not intend to sound horrible and hateful. I do not hate anyone I imagine is "genuine trans". But first, how do I know who is genuine and who is using the third space or their new identity to gain access to women or for personal sexual kicks? And second, even the "genuine" ones were born and brought up male. It is still fairly creepy to think of males in a women's space no matter how sympathetic one is.

Oh my God, nobody - and I mean nobody - has suggested having special T bathrooms that you have to wear your T badge to get into.

The suggestion, from women, has ALWAYS been single sex for males and females with EXTRA provision of unisex or gender neutral or whatever, open to all to use, while retaining or increasing disability provision.

Here's how it works in my town. Ds (who I'll describe as gender-confused) and I go out to buy stuff at the mall. I need the loo - I go to the ladies. Ds needs the loo? He uses the gender neutral loo. Nobody's dignity is being sacrificed for the needs of the selfish women.

And if I happen to be on the floor with the gender neutral loo, and I can't be mithered to go up to the next floor, I'll use that one too, thereby helping to 'destigmatise' (not a thing) the gender neutral loo.

The only reason this is hard is because TRA's won't accept it. There's an option for a perfectly safe and dignified provision for ALL, including women, but a whole stack of blokes don't want it.

Melia100

Oh my God, nobody - and I mean nobody - has suggested having special T bathrooms that you have to wear your T badge to get into

Okay. Thanks. I’m just trying my best to learn more about this so as to 1) figure out how I feel and 2) not sound a total arse as I try and explain to others why women only spaces are so important to me and others. It’s kind of impossible to know everything about this without asking questions, frustrating though those questions may be to others at times.

@SometimesLateAtNight

Melia100

Oh my God, nobody - and I mean nobody - has suggested having special T bathrooms that you have to wear your T badge to get into

Okay. Thanks. I’m just trying my best to learn more about this so as to 1) figure out how I feel and 2) not sound a total arse as I try and explain to others why women only spaces are so important to me and others. It’s kind of impossible to know everything about this without asking questions, frustrating though those questions may be to others at times.

It's extremely frustrating when it appears a question is being posed that assumes women who want single sex provision are in the way of dignified provision for transwomen.

We're not in the way. Give me a petition for gender neutral provision alongside single sex, and I'll sign it. But I'm not the problem and neither are the other women wanting the retention of single sex provision.

The people firmly standing in the way of trans dignity while peeing are TRA's themselves, and their stupid mantras and power plays. Imagine all that energy directed at women who dare express a need for single sex provision, turned into a campaign for gender neutral provision. There would be a gender neutral loo on every bloody corner!

We are not the problem. People who insist on 'validity' over safety/dignity are the problem.

Why should you have to explain why women spaces are important to you? They want to let men who self-identify as vulnerable into the women's. Why is that their preferred option? Why is third space not their go-to option? That would help transmen as well as transwomen and enby so turn it round: why is that not the default? Or why not turn the men's into unisex? If women start using it then the men will be less violent, right?

how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself?

There is a distinction between wishing to pass and passing. If a transsexual passes then the point is moot- they aren't going to be challenged. What women want is the right to expect a male to leave a female only area.

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

I'm not at all convinced there is some massive issue of transwomen being attacked in mens toilets. There will be some places where non-passing transgender people will be hassled, but I'd have thought going into the womens would be at least as much of a potential flashpoint as the mens. This is solved by the third spaces being single cubicals.