A query about third spaces

[SometimesLateAtNight]

When people talk about third spaces as a possible solution, do they generally mean that the third space is for anyone who cares to use it, or that the third space is reserved for trans persons only?

I thought I was about as peak trans-ed as I could get but I saw a post today about this issue and suddenly I can’t get past the third space thing seeming.... wrong. I’ll try and attach the post here.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself?

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone?

Why should you have to explain why women spaces are important to you? - I shouldn’t HAVE to, but I do. To anyone who thinks TWAW and should have access to them.

It's extremely frustrating when it appears a question is being posed that assumes women who want single sex provision are in the way of dignified provision for transwomen. - then my poor writing is at fault, I thought I had tried my best to make clear that I am very much both in favour of single sex provision for women AND a dignified solution for trans women.

In any event, my question appears to have been answered. Thanks all. Knowing that third spaces were only ever intended to be unisex rather than designated trans is really helpful.

If unisex toilets are available then I assume some women would be happy to use them alongside transwomen. Ditto for some men and transmen. If they are well designed.
If not, then that would just show that ALL women object to sharing spaces with someone who is biologically male. While I have sympathy for the feelings of a transperson can it be right to force women to do something that makes them feel bad in order to stop someone else feeling bad?

And if the unisex toilets were only being used by transpeople. Surely the only people they would be outing themselves to would be other transpeople, who would hopefully be sympathetic. Or, if they all passed, unaware.

The fact is OP that when it comes to a literally completely passing trans person, no one would ever know they use opposite sex provision, so the point raised by the Twitter-er is a bit silly.

A third space is needed because some people will either 1) not feel safe in the male provision and/or 2) will make others feel unsafe in the female provision. IMO Trans men might fall into both categories.

Women’s provision needs to be protected from the presence of male people and male appearing people. Trans people as well as at risk men however need a safe place to go. The third space is for them and anyone who wants to use it like say if the line is shorter or whatnot.

I have literally never heard the suggestion that unisex provision be designated 'trans'. It has always been assumed that unisex or gender neutral would include all kinds of users, trans and non-trans, and that the provision would be self-contained in order to be safe.

the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex?

A common GC view here is that nobody should be trying to ‘pass and live as the opposite sex’. Firstly you can’t live as the opposite sex unless you are the opposite sex.

Secondly toilets are divided on the basis of biological sex, therefore males should use the male facilities regardless of what clothes, makeup, medication or surgery they have had.

Thirdly is the (rather uncompassionate in my opinion) view that if someone wants to have surgeries or treatments or present in a way that causes problems (eg a passing trans woman in the male toilets or trans man in female toilets) then that is their problem to deal with. Their choice, their complex consequences, their problem to solve.

Fourthly Old Crone will be along to tell you that allowing people to use the toilets opposite to their biological sex is colluding with their mental illness and supporting a lie - that people can change sex or live as a sex they are not. Apparently that isn’t helping anyone.

Not read the whole thread

A few thoughts

Space in many places is tight and funds are short. The money is not there to pay for all this, and in many places there is no room eg old theatres

You'd need 4 spaces not 3. Gents, ladies, transwomen, transmen. Where do no gender people go?

Essentially. Not going to happen. The money, space, will is not there, in many places.

Initially there were a lot of suggestions about using the accessible facilities. Many issues with that. The trans people (the loud ones) said no, that sets me apart. People with disabilities quite rightly said wtf we have campaigned really hard for YEARS to get this and now they're a free for all?

And it's too late. If we're talking bogs. All over the place, women's are now 'all gender' (unisex) and the gents is the gents. Changing rooms in shops too. Fucks me off. Women and people with disabilities, who were under served in terms of public facilities, have lost provision. Men have gained. Patriarchy right there.

When it comes to prisons, no male should be in with the women. Full stop. I don't think they put transmen in male prisons in UK (for obvious reasons) , happy to be corrected on that. Violence in prisons should be addressed. Males at risk should be protected. But not by putting them in the women's estate.

Ditto males should not be in women's wards in hosp.

DV refuges. Women built these, got the funding, volunteer. Nothing stopping men and male trans people doing the same. I see zero from the trans lobby about doing this sort of thing. Men do a bit which is great- their situations with DV are important but the situation is usually different so it makes sense to raise funds for the sort of support that is suited to them.

Women's toilets even, we had to fight for in the first place.

The general trans lobby seems to have no interest in setting up new stuff (apart from children) but piggy backing onto/ demanding a share of what women and LGB have fought for years for.

Reminds me of how a lot of men get arsey about 'special treatment' for women, minorites etc but they NEVER seem interested in setting up their own stuff. They are used to other people doing stuff for them.

I've never heard of anyone saying a third space should be trans only. That would be really stigmatising, and also a waste, given there are other groups who could benefit. I just think there should be an additional unisex area, which is equipped to provide for disabled people, parents and children, and anyone who wants to use it. We already have a disabled loo, which should remain restricted, but an additional such loo, available to all, would double provision for disabled people as well as making life easier for parents, and trans and non-binary people. Everyone would win from that.

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

If that were so, orgs such as Stonewall wouldn't be aggressively campaigning to remove single sex provision, in favour of unisex. I have no idea why. I wouldn't use a group unisex setting, no. And I wouldn't expect anyone else to, which is why I think we should double disabled provision, and allow half to be used by anyone who wants to do so.

The people firmly standing in the way of trans dignity while peeing are TRA's themselves, and their stupid mantras and power plays. Imagine all that energy directed at women who dare express a need for single sex provision, turned into a campaign for gender neutral provision. There would be a gender neutral loo on every bloody corner!

Yep. If this were desired, there are certainly a lot of extremely well funded orgs there to ensure it came to pass. But it's not desired.

: I just think there should be an additional unisex area, which is equipped to provide for disabled people, parents and children, and anyone who wants to use it. We already have a disabled loo, which should remain restricted, but an additional such loo, available to all, would double provision for disabled people as well as making life easier for parents, and trans and non-binary people. Everyone would win from that.'

Who is 'we'?

Why should the accessible toilets be given over to do and sundry after so many years of groups working so hard to get them in the first place?

Why should the accessible toilets (usually 1) cover people with disabilities, women (or men) with kids AND gender variant people.

It won't work anyway because the tras say it is stigmatising.

Doesn't work. Practically, there is no way this will happen.

Different people have different ideas what third spaces might look like. And in different contexts they might be different from each other as well.

But most people seem to see them as being in some sense individualised spaces rather than communal, and also probably providing for the needs of a variety of people who have problems with the usual sorts of communal sex divided spaces.

I think a third space would be helpful with different size toilets to cater for different needs, so a couple with sinks inside, a couple large with baby and adult changing facilities, a couple small, but floor to ceiling.

I have no problem with carefully designed gender neutral toilets. If necessary, you can put cameras in the common areas (as if it is floor-to-ceiling separation, it should not matter). I don’t have a problem, but I can see that some people would find current female toilet provision lacking

The truth is that in many places there isn't room for a third space and also there is a significant cost barrier that can't always be overcome. So in those situations it seems that the obvious solution is to make the men's unisex and leave the women's as it is.

I wish the myth of transwomen being attacked in toilets by men would die. It does not happen. There are no reliable statistics to show this,none. If I am wrong please would someone provide a link cos I am desperate to know the actual figures (if they exist).

Why are men so tolerant towards violence in their toilets?
Why aren't they out there protesting, campaigning for better security, bringing the perpetrators to justice, calling for heavier sentences?
Why are women expected to admit males into our spaces because a small number of men can't control themselves?

Mingeofdeath

I would not say that transwomen are never attacked in Male toilets , it's the same as saying transwomen never attack women in the toilets. You will find cases that disprove that , and to some extent that's not relevant

Based on experience when a person at work transistioned and at the start that was just wearing a dress whereupon the male population refused to let them in the gents...( yes men are again the problem. What was more amazing was that they were ASTOUNDED that I didn't want the person in the ladies either)

It's pretty obvious that transwomen could be made to feel extremely uncomfortable in Male toilets , it's pretty obvious men will attack , and everyone deserves dignity and being able to feel safe

If some sex neutral self contained spaces aid that, then great

There's loads of people online who say that they don't care who they are peeing next to - so I assume all those people would be using an additional, unisex space.

As others have mentioned, fathers with daughters and mothers with sons would also be able to use an additional, unisex space.

An additional, unisex space would also be useful for people who identify as non-binary.

I've never ever seen anyone GC say that there should be separate, trans-people only spaces

Bearing in mind that as soon as males are allowed in a single-sex space, it becomes a unisex space, and that is exactly what the trans rights movement is asking for - for all spaces to become mixed-sex and segregated by gender identity instead. They seem to think that unisex spaces are fine.

I am not sure how women can stop men being violent towards other men in the male toilets though. It took us long enough to get the men to allow us to vote - the track record of listening to women isn't great.

If you want to know the opinion of some genuine trans people re 3rd spaces, you could take a look for a post on the www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard. It's titled 'Petition for third spaces - Fionne & Miranda' and was posted by another sensible TW. They want a 'third space' because they know that single sex provision is important (afaik don't infringe it themselves) but see the need for a safer option for TW than using the gents. Their call isn't just for loos, it's for the other public services eg hospitals where single sex provision is currently being violated.

You could provide third space unisex loos in every town, but the militant TRAs wouldn’t use them. They demand access to single sex women’s loos, to “validate” their delusion that they are themselves actually female. Hence all their screaming of TWAW, and attempts to silence debate.
It’s very difficult to argue logically against an irrational belief, especially when it is so entrenched, and backed by threats of violence. All we can do is provide such facilities, use the law to reinforce the protection of women’s single sex spaces, and prosecute TRAs who transgress.

@NotAssigned

The truth is that in many places there isn't room for a third space and also there is a significant cost barrier that can't always be overcome. So in those situations it seems that the obvious solution is to make the men's unisex and leave the women's as it is.

Genuine inclusion does usually cost time and money. All those businesses crowing about being 'allies' should be jumping at the chance to prove themselves. Sticking a 'gender neutral' label on the women's toilets is the cheater's way to win woke points, and they know this.

Legislation should specify exactly what a unisex or gender neutral toilet means - it should be similar to disabled toilets i.e. self-contained unit with wash basin inside, floor to ceiling walls and secure lock.
It should be wide enough to accommodate baby changing facilities, sanitary bin and room to move around in. That way it can be used by lots of different people.

All new buildings or renovations must take this legislation into account, otherwise planning permission should not be issued. So they should factor in adequate single sex toilets for women and men, disabled toilets, and some gender neutral ones too.

Exceptions can be made for certain types of property, or if a business generates income below a certain threshold, etc. In which case, as you say making the men's toilets gender neutral and leaving women's as single sex is the best compromise possible.

Over time, the provision of genuinely inclusive facilities would grow, benefitting everyone in the process.

It's only trans privilege activists dragging their heels and acting like these are complicated issues that require taking a sledgehammer to women's rights and protections.

It's not women's job to solve everyone's problems, but if politicians and policy makers were doing their job right and not dancing to the tune of the unhinged demands of an extremist minority, then I don't see why something like the above plan couldn't be implemented. The only category it wouldn't serve are the AGP males and society shouldn't be pandering to them anyway.

I think that this is something for trans people to consider very seriously before they make the decision to transition and is something their doctors should be bringing up with them. As in how will you feel using a third space toilet? How would you feel if you went in the women’s changing room and it was clear the other women were uncomfortable with your presence or asked you to leave? How are you going to feel if you don’t ‘pass’ and everywhere you go you feel you’re looking over your shoulder in case someone tries to hurt you?

You may say these questions shouldn’t have to be asked or it’s unfair but this is the reality of the world we live in.

No one has to transition, it shouldn’t be an easy decision and it’s a decision that comes with consequences and it’s not fair to push those consequences on to women, who have already been oppressed by men for thousands of years. In the past the majority of trans people would have just had to get on with their lives in the body they had.

I also don’t want my benefits to come at someone else’s cost, though.

Your guilt and concern about your own privilege are very male centred though, OP.

If female single sex spaces are turned to mixed sex, in theory to 'protect' the male people you feel are vulnerable, what happens to the female people who cannot use mixed sex spaces? I'm not just talking about the ones who will be very uncomfortable and unhappy - there's going to be millions of them, of all ages.

What about female people whose faith or culture means they cannot use any facility where male people are present?

What about female people with disabilities that mean they cannot reconcile the visual evidence and facts with a social lie they are expected to keep, or understand a massive, sudden change in social convention that may well be alarming for them? You'll find posters on MN with Autism who have mentioned how hard they find this, female people with dementia, Alzheimers, Tourettes, what about them if they can't use mixed sex facilities?

What about females who have experienced sexual assault and dv to the point they are unable to be in an enclosed space, never mind take their knickers off with a male in the room, regardless of cubicle doors in the way? What happens to them if they have not insufficient choice of toilets but no toilet provision at all, anywhere?

What about females like Tanni Grey, who has given evidence on this, or mothers with buggies, who cope in female loos by leaving doors open while they wee with a buggy in front of them, or catheterise themselves which cannot be done with the door fully closed through space issues? What about their privacy and dignity in a mixed sex provision?

Your guilt and concern not to have benefits over the male people you're concerned for is very kind of you - but there are female people who could desperately do with a little of that kindness or even to be considered as you give away their only possible access to a public loo.

We are going to have large groups of very vulnerable women, wholly excluded from any provision and the accompanying exclusion from society - with these women already being in hard to reach groups - to provide male people with more choice, safety and wellbeing.

Can you really not see the exceptional sexism in this that sees males as more important (and vanishes the impact on females) and leans on female guilt and negative socialisation that any male unhappy is their responsibility to fix?

There are many ways third spaces can be done, and improved on. Stripping females out of society isn't an acceptable solution.

In regard to exceptional sexism also see: it is right and just that females should suck up distress, embarrassment, fear and disadvantage for the greater social good of males. Because it is for males, it's not for society.

What are you expecting males to suck up exactly? What reciprocation is there going to be from male people in creating this better world? What understanding and help are they offering to female people with these issues, and how much sleep are they losing over their guilt about them?

Why the so differing standards?

Third spaces are unisex / gender neutral spaces, open to all. Provided in addition to single sex spaces.

Stop bloody using women as human shields.

A third space could be used for anyone I think, just as disabled toilets are respected as just for disabled people. If it was just for trans people others wouldn't respect that, just as women's toilets aren't respected for women. Both violent men would use them as well as women who don't mind sharing with men.

I've seen trans people being asked if they want a third space and TBF the video came from the US, but there appeared to be a strong feeling that trans people wouldn't use a third unisex toilet as it either would invalidate their identity or out them or both and it would be no safer for them.

So round and round we go...

I wonder if Dadsnet have these same discussions or if it's just the women who are trying to solve this problem and find a something suitable for all? Not a compromise but a solution. I'm certainly not compromising on my single sex spaces.

*aren't not are

Also agree that no one is suggesting having one type of toilet for trans people, a third space could be a way of keeping single sex spaces for those who want them.