A query about third spaces

[SometimesLateAtNight]

When people talk about third spaces as a possible solution, do they generally mean that the third space is for anyone who cares to use it, or that the third space is reserved for trans persons only?

I thought I was about as peak trans-ed as I could get but I saw a post today about this issue and suddenly I can’t get past the third space thing seeming.... wrong. I’ll try and attach the post here.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself?

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone?

Toilets can smell of shit shocker!

Hold the front page

Why not? It's a toilet?

Oookay. For the umpteenth time:

Think about female people of faiths and cultures who are not allowed to enter such a space where a male (regardless of how the male identifies) is present.

Think about female people with disabilities such as MNetters with Autism who have talked about just not being able to manage the cognitive dissonance, or cope with their boundaries being broken, and add in females with Alzheimers, dementia, PTSD from sexual abuse or assault, females who need to catherise - Tani Grey has talked about this and having to leave doors slightly ajar to fit into a cubicle while doing it.... females who would not be able to use a space where males were present.

Think about females who have been sexually assaulted, traumatised, are plain never going to want to be enclosed, possibly alone, to undress and make themselves that vulnerable in a space where a male is present.

Think about females who plain like privacy, dignity, personal boundaries and who emotionally really would not want to use a loo or undress in a room around males using loos.

It's fabulous that you'll get your kit off and do your stuff wherever, whoever and it's 'just a loo'. It's lovely you have the privilege of being free to do that and feeling able to do that. Now meet the millions of females who don't. And can't. And won't. And will be excluded if all female spaces become mixed sex.

Women with pushchairs/ prams often leave the door open as well.

The one that I remember well is the 'escaping the dodgy bloke in the nightclub' situation. Happened not infrequently and more than once I've checked if a dodgy man has gone for a girl I didn't know.

I mean been through all this.

Anyone who finds it mind boggling that an elderly woman wouldn't want to share a bog with men is either not entirely in good faith or doesn't know many women irl tbh.

Another point- men don't want this either. Not in general. They want to be able to check their hair etc without women wandering in and out.

The facilities mixed sex facilities where you walk past the urinals to get to the cubicles- see threads in here- men don't want that! They really don't.

Tell you what GimmeAy

While I'm writing to the planners, you can write to this charity and complain about this activity, tell them they are wasting their money. Deal?

forgottenwomen.org/causes/safe-toilets

@ShinyFootball

Toilets can smell of shit shocker!

Hold the front page

I’ll be honest

Sometimes on these thread people will say the gents smells and they miss the bogs (which is true...but partly because of the urinals if they are used)

And then you get women who say that the ladies smells of shit...that there can be shit on the walls and blood all over the seat

And i think....where the fuck do you live!!!

IME the gets smells worse. I realised I was walking into the gents once by accident at the O2 (didn't have glasses on) when the smell hit me just before seeing a row of backs at the urinals!

I've never seen shit or blood all over the ladies, and I have been in some really very skanky places.

DH says the bus station ones are really grim though, both sexes.

I think the fact that women's shit smells is shocking to some! Like that guy back in Victorian times who was so shocked on his wedding night to find out women have pubes

shiny

My shit smells like roses so its all good

Dh told me the wee smell is partly cos their wee smells stronger and partly cos of the urinal flush 😳

Ive no idea but ds 1 was trying to convince me that its much more difficult to aim than id think...so I’m not sure what to believe

The aim is definitely a big issue. Esp in places where there's drunkeness occuring!

Other issues with mixed sex. I assume they wouldn't have urinals? Meaning both the men and the women have to queue for longer. Who does this help?

Also men aren't used to queueing and in plenty of circs they won't. They'll nip outside or somewhere quiet and piss there. This isn't a step forward is it.

Give me a petition for gender neutral provision alongside single sex, and I'll sign it.

Melia, this one was started by Fionne and Miranda: www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women