A query about third spaces

[SometimesLateAtNight]

When people talk about third spaces as a possible solution, do they generally mean that the third space is for anyone who cares to use it, or that the third space is reserved for trans persons only?

I thought I was about as peak trans-ed as I could get but I saw a post today about this issue and suddenly I can’t get past the third space thing seeming.... wrong. I’ll try and attach the post here.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself?

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone?

The truth is that in many places there isn't room for a third space and also there is a significant cost barrier that can't always be overcome.

These were the arguments against accessible disabled toilets, and were easily overcome in practice. Accessible toilets were up and running in most places in a couple of years, there is a blueprint and experience in having done this.

All new builds directed that they must have x numbers on the plans or the LA doesn't approve them.

Expectation set in binding legal policy of alterations based on size of premises, service user numbers and size of income a

Account taken of listed buildings and support and advice available as to how to deal with particularly challenging set ups - but just not doing it not being an option.

LA funding grants available to support and offset the expense: and in this case there is no shortage of funding from CiNeed, Stonewall, Mermaids, Comic Relief; charities for disabled people were very poor indeed with barely any political voice at all, this group are far better funded and heard.

Clear policy expectations based on number of users and size of provision that must be made, and LA workers who check, explain, deal with the whining and protesting that change isn't possible, guide to the grants and check back the work has been done.

It's all been done before. It would be incredibly easy to do again for this.

Whenever I've said third space I've meant multi sex

So female only, male only and male/female

Thats what ive seen from MOST, obviously not all, posters on the subject

you would essentially be outing yourself by entering

What do you mean by outing themselves? Do you mean they are declaring themselves as ‘trans’ rather than as a man with stereotypically feminine expression? We can tell they are men.

I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity

What on earth is a genuine trans person? It's like people saying 'real' trans / 'fake' trans etc. Who decides who is real and who is fake 🤔 It's not possible for anyone to change sex. That's where the line is drawn. Between the biological sexes. And women's spaces aren't there for born males, no matter how 'genuine' they are. They are there to protect women's dignity and safety. Not to validate men. Third space, anyone can use if if they want. Gender neutral space. Not the women's spaces. Or open up the men's and make that gender neutral.

@Fieldofgreycorn

the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex?

A common GC view here is that nobody should be trying to ‘pass and live as the opposite sex’. Firstly you can’t live as the opposite sex unless you are the opposite sex.

Secondly toilets are divided on the basis of biological sex, therefore males should use the male facilities regardless of what clothes, makeup, medication or surgery they have had.

Thirdly is the (rather uncompassionate in my opinion) view that if someone wants to have surgeries or treatments or present in a way that causes problems (eg a passing trans woman in the male toilets or trans man in female toilets) then that is their problem to deal with. Their choice, their complex consequences, their problem to solve.

Fourthly Old Crone will be along to tell you that allowing people to use the toilets opposite to their biological sex is colluding with their mental illness and supporting a lie - that people can change sex or live as a sex they are not. Apparently that isn’t helping anyone.

No actual opinion then

I wonder if Dadsnet have these same discussions or if it's just the women who are trying to solve this problem and find a something suitable for all

Men don’t have to

Nobody is fucking around with their bogs

Thirdly is the (rather uncompassionate in my opinion) view that if someone wants to have surgeries or treatments or present in a way that causes problems (eg a passing trans woman in the male toilets or trans man in female toilets) then that is their problem to deal with. Their choice, their complex consequences, their problem to solve.

And where is the compassion from the trans community for women who have experienced violence from men, women who are uncomfortable sharing spaces where they will be undressed with people significantly stronger than them who are able to rape them if they wanted to? women who would not be permitted to go to into spaces in case there is a male body present?

I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity

Neither do I, but I don't want women to live without basic dignity either.
So, third spaces seems like the only solution.

I wonder if Dadsnet have these same discussions or if it's just the women who are trying to solve this problem and find a something suitable for all
*

The fact that these discussions seem to rarely be had in any sensible way by men speaks volumes to the fact many TRAs are also MRAs/misogynists in thin disguise.

And where is the compassion from the trans community for women who have experienced violence from men, women who are uncomfortable sharing spaces where they will be undressed with people significantly stronger than them who are able to rape them if they wanted to? women who would not be permitted to go to into spaces in case there is a male body present?

THIS ^^^

It's shameful for females not to be compassionate and put themselves out for these male born people.

The male born people however can gaily give no fucks and that's just fine.

SEXISM.

S E X I S M

The fact that these discussions seem to rarely be had in any sensible way by men

again an issue of every day sexism, that for male born people the female experience of life and issues are not ones that cross their radar. They don't affect males, so they're not of interest to males.

My DF was meh, doesn't affect me about the whole business until I pointed out about males walking into toilets where his daughters and grand daughters were. Then he went incandescent.

Sadly, in true patriarchal way, because it was then his property under threat, and he's quite attached to and protective of it, particularly against other males. In theory, it had meant nothing to him at all.

Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

Or in the women's bathroom too if they become open to anyone who "identifies" as a woman. Opening the ladies up to TW puts everyone in danger of predatory men who would exploit that access.

@TheSingingKettle49

Thirdly is the (rather uncompassionate in my opinion) view that if someone wants to have surgeries or treatments or present in a way that causes problems (eg a passing trans woman in the male toilets or trans man in female toilets) then that is their problem to deal with. Their choice, their complex consequences, their problem to solve.

And where is the compassion from the trans community for women who have experienced violence from men, women who are uncomfortable sharing spaces where they will be undressed with people significantly stronger than them who are able to rape them if they wanted to? women who would not be permitted to go to into spaces in case there is a male body present?

I think the TRA-approved answer here is something along the lines of "that is their problem to deal with. Their choice, their complex consequences, their problem to solve." I think it was Riley Dennis who made a video basically saying that.

I don't understand why they're not scared of females. They do know we're not made of candy floss and perfume, don't they? Yes, its a lot less likely they'll be physically attacked but anyone who thinks they'll get a smooth ride in a female changing room clearly has never been a girl. All the sisterhood stuff is bollox especially at school.

S E X I S M

this

‘Live as the opposite sex’ requires sexism. It requires the opposite sex to live and be treated differently. The only aspects of ‘living as the opposite sex that doesn’t require sexism are those bits to do with our BIOLOGY.

Our swimming pool changing rooms have the "changing village" as the sort of default space (enclosed cubicles, although should be more enclosed imo) with the single sex spaces for those that want them. I guess I imagined the third spaces would be the default for all the millions of people claiming they don't care what sex the person next to them is, leaving the ladies' free (and not turned into the third spaces) for women who need it.

I don't even think we'd be that bothered except now we've seen the numbers of people saying "I'm coming into your space, how are you going to stop me? "

or mothers with buggies, who cope in female loos by leaving doors open while they wee with a buggy in front of them

I always think about this. It's quite common as people feel at ease doing this in the ladies but I wouldn't be able to in a mixed space.

Very clearly put, Aesop

The term 'transsexual' is now frowned upon. If someone is transgender, then surely all they need to do is live as 'the opposite gender'... whatever they perceive that to be. Transgender people should be absolutely free to do that, and should not be harassed or discriminated against for so doing... any more that anyone else should for violating an artificial stereotype.

Our swimming pool changing rooms have the "changing village" as the sort of default space (enclosed cubicles, although should be more enclosed imo) with the single sex spaces for those that want them. I guess I imagined the third spaces would be the default for all the millions of people claiming they don't care what sex the person next to them is, leaving the ladies' free (and not turned into the third spaces) for women who need it.

On the contrary. This is the set up at Center Parcs. Nearly everyone is changing as families so use the changing village style cubicles. But that didn’t stop TRAs who demanded access to the (communal) female space.

OP what you are ignoring here is TRAs don’t want access to toilets, they want access to women.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself

You seem to be seeing this entirely through a trans lens. If you view it through the lens of women accessing and using single sex spaces, services and sports you might see it very differently. And after all, it is women's spaces that are at stake here

It doesn't matter if someone has 'nefarious' intent or not....the point is about the privacy, dignity and safety of women and girls in spaces, services and sports that have been set up to cater for their specific needs. Whether a person thinks they 'pass' or not, is not the issue. ( most of the time they don't). It really is about colonisation and everything that implies or suggests.....and the only solution is for 'other' spaces

Fourthly Old Crone will be along to tell you that allowing people to use the toilets opposite to their biological sex is colluding with their mental illness and supporting a lie - that people can change sex or live as a sex they are not. Apparently that isn’t helping anyone.

But field, it's a fair point. OP used the word humiliating. I'm sure they mean well, and of course someone with GD might feel that way, but people who are not dysphoric should not reinforce and promote the idea that it's humiliating to not pass as the opposite sex. These attitudes shape society, it's not just about people with GD.

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone

You are also starting from an assumption that there is such a thing as a 'trans person' - which implies a distinct category of human being that is separate to male or female; is 'other' to male or female. That is somehow born as a third category ( not the same as inter-sex), and this is entirely part of nature.

That, in itself, is a pretty big leap of faith/ acceptance of ideology.
People who identify as trans are numerous and vary various in their back-story. Most people here are suggesting it is not possible to change sex, and that identifying as 'trans' is a product of the mind and not of the body.

Sex is about the body/the biology and the consequences of this in the life and lived experience of a person.

You'd need 4 spaces not 3. Gents, ladies, transwomen, transmen. Where do no gender people go?

And, (as usual), no thought for the less able. More casual ableism.

Best thing, really, is to completely turn disabled provision over to fannying about with this nonsense and solve two problems with one stroke. The disabled will finally get the message they aren't welcome anywhere (seems some have been a blt slow on the uptake with the pisspoor provision of any facilities) and we solve T rights forever.

If I sound unfairly bitter and sarcastic, it's because I have friends who already don't want to leave the house because they struggle with their disability. And nothing being discussed here is going to help that.

Women who are obsessed with trans safety can use the gender neutral one in their workplace too, to normalise the fact that the gender neutral loo isn't 'just' for transpeople

Toilet facilities in an office or day time workspace are quite another matter to toilets in the night time economy ( & certain other situations) It matters not is they are full stall or not - if they are accessed via a communal corridor behind a closed door.

Unlike a lot of other people posting, I did envisage third spaces as being specifically for trans people, rather than unisex. This isn't because I want to 'humilate' trans people or because I don't care about their dignity; it's simply because I think it's the most sustainable an sensible option going forward. People have mentioned that those who think TWAW can also use those spaces so they're not seen as trans-specific, but isn't this facilitating the guilt-tripping that many young women feel, to somehow make TW feel better? There are a lot of women, young women especially, who will not have the courage to be openly GC but who nonetheless do not really want to share spaces with males. And being a believer in gender identity doesn't make women any less at risk of sexual harassment or assault. I'm not happy with the idea of some women only realising what they've been supporting when they've been harmed by it.

As for third spaces being humiliating - what is the point of the trans movement if it just accepts that being trans is humiliating and embarrassing? And tells us the only way to give trans people dignity is to pretend that they're not trans?
The trans movement should be working to gain acceptance of trans people as trans people. Then it won't be embarrassing for them to use third spaces.

Single-occupant bathrooms for trans people mean that:

• Single sex bathrooms are kept, which is necessary for the privacy, comfort and safety of everyone
• trans people with genuine dysphoria are not lumped into communal spaces with predators like Karen White
• trans people who actually do care about the comfort of other people can be confident that they have a choice of facility that doesn't encroach on others

aesop oh yes i realise that. They shouldn't do that. My point was re third spaces somehow being "outing" which it wouldn't be if it was the default. I wonder how many people would actually use it as the default though...! Imagine if it turns out most people prefer to be in spaces of the same biological sex... for privacy and dignity reasons as well as safety?!