A query about third spaces

[SometimesLateAtNight]

When people talk about third spaces as a possible solution, do they generally mean that the third space is for anyone who cares to use it, or that the third space is reserved for trans persons only?

I thought I was about as peak trans-ed as I could get but I saw a post today about this issue and suddenly I can’t get past the third space thing seeming.... wrong. I’ll try and attach the post here.

If third spaces are specifically for trans people (of both sexes), how does that provide any dignity for the trans person who has no nefarious intent and truly just wishes to pass and live as the opposite sex? Wouldn’t that be really quite humiliating to have to go, as a passing man or woman, into the ‘trans’ toilets and ‘out’ yourself?

And if the third spaces are for everyone, how is the safety of trans people any better protected than if they used the bathroom which accords with their biological sex? Surely a trans woman who passes poorly or not at all is just as likely to be assaulted in the free for all third space by a man, as in the men’s bathroom?

I can’t stress enough how much (due to past experiences) I want women’s spaces to remain just that, women’s spaces but... I also don’t want genuine trans people to live without the basic dignity and safety im seeking to preserve for myself. How do you reconcile these notions? Or do you not? Is this just an example of TRAs ruining it for everyone?

With swimming pools, having third areas is common in Europe (called cabins) and they are used by families and couples rather than splitting up into separate areas negating the need for two shampoo bottles and two locker tokens. This was the case at Bath spa too. Worked fine

Third areas are common in the U.K. too, I thought they'd be the norm by now except in very small pools.

*This situation is a problem about how some men are scared of male violence'.

Why are women expected to resolve it?

Why indeed!

(Apparently to prove one is not a bitter harridan who only cares for women, according to the OP).*

excuse me? I have said nothing of the sort. In fact, to the contrary, I have stated that it ought not to be women’s problem to resolve, and would be much obliged if you would point me to the place where I have called anyone a harridan.

As I said upthread, but will repeat here again, I wanted to know what a third space was to look like in practice. You’ve been at great pains to suggest that my question was nonsense, which may or may not be true. The reason WHY I wanted to know was nothing at all to do with whether allowing bio men access to women’s spaces is wrong. It IS wrong. Many of the reasons why have been expressed very clearly here.

That said, I stand by the fact that once my needs and the needs of my sex are met, I hope that members of the other sex do not suffer if an alternative to suffering - an alternative which does not impinge on my rights or comfort- is available. My question about what a third space was, was asked in order that I could form my own view on whether to actively support the notion of a third space. NOT so that I could decide, ‘ah now that I know what it is and that it’s not nice for them we’d better let them in with us after all guys’. 🙄

I agree with the PPs who have said men don’t tend to worry about the comfort dignity or protection of groups other than their own. PPs have suggested that this means we as women shouldn’t trouble ourselves with thinking about any way of alleviating any suffering which may exist for men. I strongly disagree. It is not a race to the bottom. The fault lies with any men not thinking of others, not with a woman or women who think of others. That may well be socialised thinking, that we ought to care for others. But instead of beating it out of ourselves, we (by we I mean society, not women, god help us!) should be beating it IN to men. What kind of society are we aiming for, if we internationally adopt an approach of only looking out for our own group? I am curious- if my question had been regarding how best to stop the disproportionately high rate of police murder of black men, would you have advised me it’s men’s problem to solve? Because it’s not my problem. I’m a white women, I’m not getting shot by the police. But I’d rather they weren’t either. Can this really not be extrapolated to men who truly think they are women, assuming they exist?

Intentionally not internationally, sorry!

A third space for those who think/wish/pretend they are something they are not is just (expensive) pandering to an untruth.

It doesn't offer the validation wanted anyway.

Years ago on here I said we would get s new hierarchy

Men (original definition)
Women (who used to be men)
Everyone else (I suggested the term non-people)

A few people said don't be silly.

But this is literally what harrop has said.

The prevalence of the phrase 'women and c*s women' is increasing.

I understand your approach, OP. I will campaign for third spaces vociferously, and with all my might. We're just being told repeatedly by the tra movement that its not what they want. They want my spot.

Shiny, remember the Green party referring to us as "non-men"? Good times...

Indeed I do

I'd imagine if the queues for the women's toilets/changing rooms were too long, women would have no issue going into the trans room instead. Which sort of proves the point that there's no real issue.

About 20 years ago, a night-club (a sort of an elitist sort of place) introduced unixex toilets. It was a bit weird having men walk in and out and putting your lippy on next to a man, but it was novel and funky and cool back in the day.

I recall working for a Building control company a few years ago and one of the surveyors had gone to visit a sort of place of worship for Jewish people I believe. Apparently the women and the men were separated and there were only two stairs/entrance-exits - one for the men and one for the women, whereas legislation required more than one exit for the size of the building - don't quote me on the exact details. The person she had spoken to was adamant that the women could not use the men's stairs etc. Her question was whether she could sign off on it for fire safety. I recall several questions back and forth between my boss and the surveyor, but I think in the end they signed off on it somehow by essentially dividing the place into two or something. Wish I had ear-wigged a bit more as it was an interesting discussion.

In my youth, in a nightclub, i've often gone into a gents toilet when the queue for the ladies was a mile long and no queue for the mens. I apologised loudly walking in and kept my eyes diverted, but I never felt threatened. Though they were particularly stinky. When you gotta go, you gotta go though.

GimmeAy
I think you have made an odd assumption. Being so desperate not to soil yourself in public that you are forced to use a space you dont feel safe in is not 'having no issue' with using a mixed sex facility.

'I'd imagine if the queues for the women's toilets/changing rooms were too long, women would have no issue going into the trans room instead. '

SOME women.

My mum wouldn't do that in a million years. I'm sure she's not super unusual in that.

@ShinyFootball

'I'd imagine if the queues for the women's toilets/changing rooms were too long, women would have no issue going into the trans room instead. '

SOME women.

My mum wouldn't do that in a million years. I'm sure she's not super unusual in that.

Exactly

It doesn’t matter who would use multi sex areas

Sure.. I'd probably be happy using (properly designed) either-sex loos in most places. But I absolutely support the need for single sex loos etc too.

Well they could divide the toilets up 1/3rd each - Female/Male/Unisex.

Women need more facilities than men for biological reasons and we currently do not have enough provision. If you've even been to the theatre you will have observed this.

We need more facilities not less.

A good reason for leaving the ladies alone and making the gents mixed sex, rather than vice versa as is happening all over the place at the moment.

Well it's Building Control legislation that you need to be addressing then.

on this topic, rather confusingly a vigorous trans rights campaigner is now suggesting that 'cis' women be compelled to use a 'third space' (toilets) as apparently two 'drunk cis-woman' karate chopped a transwomen (named as Lara Rae, 56) in a women's toilet (I can only read the headline as I am not going to click through to Pink News as their grasp of rl facts seems extremely tenuous at best) and therefore women's facilities are not safe for transwomen so 'cis-women' need to be banned from them. Now, climbing out of the looking glass for a minute - either this guy is being clever and fishing for reactions from people who will then be targeted by other activists, his account has been hacked, or he has gone round full circle and genuinely believes that trans women and women should not mix.... I am sooo confused. Either way, if he wants to campaign for a third space for trans women, we can have our single sex facilities back - job done. I like the above thoughts about a third unisex facility, rather than making the ladies into a totally unfit for purpose unisex facility like some organisations have done.

GimmeAy

Well you were the one suggesting a third space by reducing the existing provision

And your seem not to be aware of the activism around female toilet provision that has been going on for years.

Maybe look into these things a bit before making off the cuff suggestions that will reduce access for women and then when this is pointed out, saying oh well you need to do X then.

All this shows to me is that you have very little interest in really common issues for women and also very little understanding of the background activism etc that has been going on.

Female toilet provision issues are even reported in the MSM from time to time it's not niche.

My mum wouldn't do that in a million years. I'm sure she's not super unusual in that. Why not? It's a toilet?

Ladies toilets can stink like shit a lot. Men's toilets stink like piss.
I'd have no issue with unisex toilets really, though I've often had diarrhoea and held it in in the ladies. In fairness - you need privacy to go for a poop.

Ladies toilets can stink like shit a lot. Men's toilets stink like piss

Women don’t wee and men dont poo then?

A poop?

Why the weird euphemism?

Anyway.

You honestly can't understand why a 78 year old woman wouldn't walk into the gents?

I mean that's preposterous.

Sorry into a toilet that was open to men, that should say.