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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Newsnight Tonight - Tavistock Clinic concerns

275 replies

rogdmum · 18/06/2020 21:35

On at 22:45

Tweet: twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1273702696076410882?s=21

Says:

TONIGHT: #Newsnight has seen evidence that staff at England's only children’s NHS gender clinic say their concerns over the care provided were ‘shut down’.

Clinicians reported worries that some patients were referred onto a gender transitioning pathway too quickly.

22:45

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
ThePurported · 19/06/2020 12:48

Yes Maitlis was brilliant when she interviewed Carmichael.
The ridiculous Glinner inquisition interview was with Sarah Smith, who clearly didn't have the first idea about any of this.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 13:06

Important to remember how Heather Brunskell-Evans was treated after her contributions to R4 Moral Maze 'Defining Gender' www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09dz416#play

Dr Heather Brunskell-Evans OPEN LETTER
March 6, 2018
"As some people are aware, I was a Spokeswoman for the Women’s Equality Party’s (WEP) policy on Violence Against Women and Girls. As a result of my views expressed on the Moral Maze Radio 4 on November 15th, 2017 complaints were made by one or more party members, and I became the subject of a 3-month investigation. The Executive Committee upheld the complaints and on February 20th, 2018 my elected position was taken from me. I was informed I could retain membership but I declined to do so.

Many people have contacted me about the investigation, querying what the issues were and exactly what happened. I have thus far largely maintained silence, hoping that the WEP’s action would speak for itself. However, I have decided to speak out following an event held in London on 27th February by A Woman’s Place UK at which the current leader of the WEP Sophie Walker and I were both present.

On the Moral Maze, I had expressed the view that gender is a social construct while sex is a biological reality which families and society invest with meaning. While I believe adults can define their gender in whichever way they see fit, more caution should be exercised when it comes to the medical transgendering of children. I said:

“A genuinely progressive society would allow boys and girls to be whatever they want to be so I am absolutely perfectly happy if boys want to wear dresses…. but the problem comes when we decide that the child is genuinely internally and in some sense not a boy but a girl and that is where we get into trouble. So, I don’t believe there is anything wrong with a boy’s body if he wants to wear a dress.”

In the interests of transparency let me explain the original charges. One or more WEP members alleged the above views demonstrated:

“Discrimination against transgender people”
“Lack of suitability to represent the party”
“Fundamental disagreement with the core values of the party”

The Committee upheld the complaints and also concluded that my subsequent conduct had brought the Party into disrepute. I disputed the Committee’s findings. I did not accept that I had fundamentally disagreed with the Party’s core values. The Committee’s Report makes clear the core values with which I am fundamentally at odds is the Party’s core value of gender. I initially found this assertion nonsensical. At the time of the broadcast I believed my views were wholly commensurable with the Party’s stated position: “everyone has the right to define their gender or to reject gendered divisions as they choose”. The core value that a child’s biological sex could be socially constructed had not been made clear to me." (continues)

www.heather-brunskell-evans.co.uk/body-politics/open-letter/

Flowers & thanks for Heather.

DeRigueurMortis · 19/06/2020 13:09

They fully believe that these children are born with the opposite sex brain and if they don't change their body "to match" then they will have a traumatic life and end up committing suicide. It's the foundation stone of the whole ideology and, when you're that deep in, it takes a massive mindset shift to realise that it's not true

I think it's worse than that.

It's not just a change of mindset - it's an acknowledgement that as a parent you have been responsible for agreeing to potentially unnecessary medical intervention that has serious long term consequences for your child that may be irreversible.

It's also why imho Susie Green should not be CEO of Mermaids.

She has a very personal vested interest in promoting not just affirmation of trans children but early medical intervention and surgical transition.

Any other stance is a direct (poor) reflection on her personal choices.

A group that's supposed to support trans children and parents should not be driven by a personal agenda.

dobbleby · 19/06/2020 13:12

Does anyone know what's in this for Carmichael?

An incredibly generous salary & fantastic benefits?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/06/2020 13:15

@DeRigueurMortis

They fully believe that these children are born with the opposite sex brain and if they don't change their body "to match" then they will have a traumatic life and end up committing suicide. It's the foundation stone of the whole ideology and, when you're that deep in, it takes a massive mindset shift to realise that it's not true

I think it's worse than that.

It's not just a change of mindset - it's an acknowledgement that as a parent you have been responsible for agreeing to potentially unnecessary medical intervention that has serious long term consequences for your child that may be irreversible.

It's also why imho Susie Green should not be CEO of Mermaids.

She has a very personal vested interest in promoting not just affirmation of trans children but early medical intervention and surgical transition.

Any other stance is a direct (poor) reflection on her personal choices.

A group that's supposed to support trans children and parents should not be driven by a personal agenda.

I was about to come on say exactly the same thing. If you are personally responsible for the medical transition of a child or children, you can't really afford to have any doubts about what you have done.
dobbleby · 19/06/2020 13:17

I was about to come on say exactly the same thing. If you are personally responsible for the medical transition of a child or children, you can't really afford to have any doubts about what you have done.

This is exactly it, how can you be impartial?

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 13:17

I was about to come on say exactly the same thing. If you are personally responsible for the medical transition of a child or children, you can't really afford to have any doubts about what you have done.

No, but those with professional/ statuatory Safeguarding responsibilities are required to question.

wellbehavedwomen · 19/06/2020 13:25

I'm so, so relieved about the upcoming Judicial Review. The questions will be asked in a court, all evidence provided, and cross-examination by really skilled barristers to ensure evasions are picked up on and points pressed.

Whatever the answers may be, they need to be in the public domain. This is state funded. Given the horrific claims being made, this has got to be looked into properly, and thoroughly, and either disproven or steps taken.

SarahTancredi · 19/06/2020 13:39

I'm so, so relieved about the upcomingJudicial Review.The questions will be asked in a court, all evidence provided, and cross-examination by really skilled barristers to ensure evasions are picked up on and points pressed

The review worries me alot tbh.

We have seen hundreds of threads on Twitter and here etc where everyone from drs and scientists and even general members of the public have provided links and evidence etc and emailed to anyone and everyone who may be involved/able to forward to those in charge etc. The work has basically been done for them.

What hasn't been done is the reversal of the institutional capture ( something else that's been investigated and analysed and evidence provided to the relevant bodies) and that's where the wall is. It's all there. They literally have nothing to do. They have always had all the evidence they could ever want or need and then some. I just dont know what the chances are that they will come the a conclusion that indicates that all these agencies with thousands of pounds if disposable cash and government funding are wrong. They would then have to admit that they were wrong too. Then open themselves up to law suits because in being wrong we can prove they knew they were wrong for years. We all gave screenshots etc ourselves for heavens sake.

Saved specifically for the moment that they wake up to the lies and the harm.

I have no doubt that they will carry on harming children because they dont want the law suits and they dont want to admit they were wrong.

And we have only got this far through crowd funding. We do not have the resources to take on the big guns SadAngry

Apollo440 · 19/06/2020 13:44

It's amazing isn't it. Barely a week after JKR expressed her concerns and was vilified by the woke media, the whole shit show is starting to unravel. No matter people have been raising alarms for years perhaps in this media obsessed world it took someone of her status to speak up to get people to look into the allegations. Depressing really but a big thanks to her.

BessyK · 19/06/2020 13:47

What will happen to those parents that have affirmed their child when the trans train comes off the rails? When Mermaids is seen as the new Kids Company.

SarahTancredi · 19/06/2020 13:53

And the social workers who threatened to take kids away if they didnt affirm..

And the schools who affirmed behind parents backs and the safeguarding leads who failed at the very basic level of the job..

Schools are already financially fucked they cant afford lawyers and to rebuild their toilet blocks a second time.

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 19/06/2020 13:54

@dobbleby

Does anyone know what's in this for Carmichael?

An incredibly generous salary & fantastic benefits?

This is basically my thoughts on Carmichael.

I used to feel a bit sorry for her, stuck between the complete affirmation crowd and the watchful waiting one. Now I think she’s the same as Susie Green and other parents with trans children. She’s at the head of a clinic that has sent children to be prescribed on a dangerous medical path for ideological reasons. 10 years ago when the numbers of children being referred was in the 10s not the 1000s, it would have been simpler for them to screen - do the watchful waiting, etc. Now children are being referred on after 1-2 sessions. Carmichael can’t now admit GIDS pathway is wrong, if she does she has to admit to herself her personal involvement in the harm done to children. Not only that but the whole service would crumble. 1000s of patients would need to be reviewed by objective independent clinicians. It would be huge. The only reason I can think of for her telling staff not to involve the safeguarding lead is misguided self preservation.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 13:58

Does anyone know what's in this for Carmichael?

Dr Heather Brunskell-Evans twitter comment is very important:

"[Polly] Carmichael of TaviAndPort consistently describes GIDS practice as holding the middle ground. This is not true, although I don't doubt she fervently believes it. The medical ethic which dominates the GIDS is defined by lobby groups such as Genderintell

  1. This ethic is very worrying, not only for children's bodies but the body politic. The clinical training and judgement of the psychologists are made subordinate to a concept 'gender identity' which, according to stonewalluk , is not up for debate

  2. The GIDS is not progressive (nor are its global counterparts) for children & partakes in an identity politics which for 5 yrs (at least) is authoritarianism writ large. That medicine is allied so closely to interest groups makes urgent the need for a public inquiry"

twitter.com/brunskellevans/status/1273935100724592640

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 14:00

The only reason I can think of for her telling staff not to involve the safeguarding lead is misguided self preservation.

Defensive practice is always contrary to effective Safeguarding.

MoltenLasagne · 19/06/2020 14:04

Do you think that the timing after JKR's statement means they've pulled this forward on purpose or is it just massive coincidence?

Also isn't it GIDS that had a large number of clinicians quit because they disagreed with treatments? I can understand their reasoning but it seems that a consequence of this is that it's left the true believers in charge with no challenge.

LovelyLion · 19/06/2020 14:12

Schools are already financially fucked they cant afford lawyers and to rebuild their toilet blocks a second time.

I don't know of any that bothered to rebuild in the first place. The only change involved was saying "use the toilets and changing rooms for your chosen gender if you want" to trans children. Easy to change back.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 14:13

Also isn't it GIDS that had a large number of clinicians quit because they disagreed with treatments? I can understand their reasoning but it seems that a consequence of this is that it's left the true believers in charge with no challenge.

There was challenge within the service which led to a Safeguarding review after which some also remained who were critical.

Practitioners have a professional duty to practice safely and ethically. Many have whistleblown their concerns and having done so it would be impossible to remain / collude with a service they regard it as being unsafe.

Sat 23-Feb-19 OP EweSurname wrote,
"Times article - Governor quits ‘blinkered’ Tavistock clinic
Another fantastic Giliigan piece

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/governor-quits-blinkered-tavistock-clinic-82db7wzq8

A governor of the NHS trust that runs England’s only gender clinic for children has resigned in protest at its “blinkered” and “one-sided” response to doctors who had raised the alarm about “woefully inadequate” care.

Marcus Evans, a consultant psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman trust with three decades’ experience, told The Sunday Times that the trust had said things that were “not true”, had created a “climate of fear” and was trying to “dismiss or undermine” concerns raised by its own clinicians."
thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3515980-Times-article-Governor-quits-blinkered-Tavistock-clinic

SarahTancredi · 19/06/2020 14:14

I don't know of any that bothered to rebuild in the first place. The only change involved was saying "use the toilets and changing rooms for your chosen gender if you want" to trans children. Easy to change back

Some I believe did re build. Somehow there was money for this but not books Hmm

SisterWendyBuckett · 19/06/2020 14:17

As Safeguarding & Duty of Care failings at children's GIDS service are now being considered publically it is important that people are aware that the adult services have also being identified as unsafe by parents of 17-25 year olds.

Thank you for highlighting this R0

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 14:27

SisterWendyBuckett Its also important to highlight the responsibility to Safeguard Vulnerable Adults over 25 years old.

twoHopes · 19/06/2020 14:29

I agree with all of you. I've had many conversations with friends about trans issues and I always find the absolute last piece to fall is the idea that these kids really are "born in the wrong body". I've still not gotten there with many of my friends and I'm sure the reason is because the alternative is too horrifying. A whole nation lied to by doctors, schools, the government, the media, the justice system, the police. If I hadn't seen all the evidence I wouldn't believe it either. It's utter madness.

LovelyLion · 19/06/2020 14:33

If school rebuilt and didn't meet the requirement of separate toilets for girls and boys over the age of 8 there are yet more questions. Mostly, who is it at the design stage that didn't know or bother to look up the actual regulations, and who signed it off without checking?! Neither of those things are up to the regular school leaders, and suggests institutional capture of completely different industry.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 14:34

Transcript of Newsnight's investigation into serious Safeguarding failures at NHS Tavistocl GIDS service

pastebin.com/Y12A97vB

H/t Oliver Burkeman

(extract)

"Many children referred to GIDS are extremely distressed and have complex needs. The clinicians we have spoken to say there is often lots to explore before medication should be considered. But they say there is wide variation in practice. It is claimed that the transcripts that many staff are worried and openly discuss their fears.
“Maybe we are medicating gay children, kids with autism and maybe medicating traumatised children. And if we are, we are doing bad things to these vulnerable kids.”

NHS England says that young people should be referred for medical treatment, puberty blocking drugs, after a minimum of three sessions. But the review heard from several staff that one member of the leadership, Sarah Davidson, would refer children for treatment after only one or two appointments.

“I was working with an executive on one case of assessment of a young person and the executive member agrees to refer to this person to the medical pathway within the first hour of meeting him.”
“Are those not supposed to happen?”
“Absolutely it should never happen. Because this is a pathway that will lead to huge, huge changes for this young person. It could lead to potentially infertility and so on.” (continues)