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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Newsnight Tonight - Tavistock Clinic concerns

275 replies

rogdmum · 18/06/2020 21:35

On at 22:45

Tweet: twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status/1273702696076410882?s=21

Says:

TONIGHT: #Newsnight has seen evidence that staff at England's only children’s NHS gender clinic say their concerns over the care provided were ‘shut down’.

Clinicians reported worries that some patients were referred onto a gender transitioning pathway too quickly.

22:45

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 08:58

I’m not really surprised that homophobia is an underlying issues with the families pushing for transition. After all, it was the motivation behind Susie Green’s child’s transition as she HAPPiLY admits in her TED talk.

October 2017 Susie Green (CEO Mermaids Charity)
"Susie Green shares the inspirational story of her transgender daughter, who told her when she was four that she should have been born a girl."
591,463 views
www.ted.com/talks/susie_green_transgender_a_mother_s_story

The role played by Norman Spack should be better recognised. Spack is an American pediatric endocrinologist at Boston Children's Hospital, where he co-founded the hospital's Gender Management Service.

PigeonToe · 19/06/2020 09:06

This was so awful and depressing from one of the Tavistock clinician transcripts from that BBC article:

"...If I am not wrong, very many vulnerable children have been very poorly treated and will be left with, potentially, a lifetime of damage here."

Nothing else to say really but just agreeing with PP that there urgently needs to be a Panorama investigation, or investigation from someone, on GIDS and on Mermaids.

BlackKite · 19/06/2020 09:08

@2Rebecca

Will watch but Maitlis seems too wedded to identity politics to do it justice and the BBC are very whimpy and terrified of upsetting the TRAs
I think that's a little unfair. Emily Maitlis retweeted the report this morning, saying how important it was.
HandsOffMyRights · 19/06/2020 09:09

I've posted this article several times before, but I think it's an important piece:

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/7362652/changing-gender-new-anorexia/

I think the anorexia analogy is an interesting one.

Yet here we are where child surgery is being promoted as a way to 'cure' children of their sexuality and/or issues around harmful gender stereotyping.

It's a child abuse scandal and girls especially are being harmed.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 09:10

But as PP mentioned we need to make sure that the Tavistock and the media don't twist this into a "one bad apple" story about Polly Carmichael. There's a real risk that she will be the sacrificial lamb and the rest will all get covered up. The reluctance of the media to do their fucking job, join the dots and expose the shit going on inside Mermaids and Stonewall is sinister.

Also MPs.
Maria Miller MP (former minister & chair of Women & Equalities Committee) held an extensive review into Trans Equality including NHS provision. Rather than considering Safeguarding & Duty of Care to children & Vulnerable Adults, it was led/ misled by TRAs.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39003.htm#_idTextAnchor216

OhHolyJesus · 19/06/2020 09:16

Stephanie Davis Arai of Transgendertrend said,years ago, that she had never seen a girl wanting to transition who wasn't either a lesbian, autistic, or had suffered some kind of past trauma
*
years ago*

No wonder Helen Webberly refuses to participate in the Trans Kids: We Need To Talk doc unless she wasn't going to be interviewed.

I wonder if this is what Liz Truss meant when she was talking about banning gay conversion therapy.

As do I, the Times wrote is as govt banning of gay conversions therapy to placate the LGBT. If this is what they meant by that they are going to be fuming even more than they were before.

I wish the law suits would hurry up, I do think this is the only way to break this thing wide open once and for all.

NotBadConsidering · 19/06/2020 09:20

What this speaks to is a failure of mental health services for young people. The only reason there is “too long a wait” for treatment for gender issues at GIDS is because it’s become the dogma that if a child mentions gender, they need to be referred to GIDS. It’s become the norm that the only place these children can be treated is in a gender clinic, because gender trumps everything else.

What they actually need is for referring doctors to not jerk the knee at the mention of a gender identity issue and refer the child to a place where anxiety, depression, trauma, autism and family dysfunction can be appropriately assessed. And this should be done in a neutral way towards gender. Supporting where appropriate but not making false promises.

So this means there needs to be appropriate services available to refer to. And this is where children are being failed. It’s indicative of how poor the NHS is in that there is no other option available and child and adolescent mental health services are woefully underfunded with poor access. If CAMHS has the capacity to take on these children and addressed their mental health with gender being a component of it, rather than the leader, many children would be spared the distress of “waiting too long” for GIDS and would be spared the horrors of puberty blockers. I know GIDS does take referrals from other mental health services and paediatricians, but it also takes referrals from GPs and schools. It should be mandatory that children have acute mental health issues and trauma assessed and treated before referral to GIDS, but this would rely on those services being adequately available. It shouldn’t be required, because if GIDS had appropriate governance and safeguarding they would do this themselves, but it’s evident they don’t.

The whole system is failing these kids.

NonnyMouse1337 · 19/06/2020 09:28

What is the name of the woman who was doing the investigative report? There's a wealth of information on the threads here on the topic. Should we be looking at sending this sort of info directly her way, if it hasn't already been done so? It might help with further investigations and reporting.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 09:30

May 2019 Lord Lewis Moonie hosted a Standing For Women event, 'Duty of Care' at Westminster. Prior to the event Moonie was threatened with disciplinary measures by Labour whips. He resigned the Labour whip.
Very few politicians attended despite being encouraged to by concerned constituents.

From PDF free download summary of the speeches at this meeting:

"Dr Lord Moonie was elected as the member of parliament for Kirkcaldy in 1987. During his time as a Labour MP he served as Minister for Veterans at the Ministry of Defence. Upon his retirement in 2005 he was created a life peer and took his seat in the House of Lords.

Prior to entering national politics he had a career in medicine, spending time specialising in psychiatry and pharmacology before entering community medicine, whilst also serving as a councillor on Fife Regional Council.

He says:

“I am sponsoring this event in the House of Lords for Standing for Women because I am concerned about the growing number of individuals, especially children, who are being diagnosed with gender dysphoria and with the treatment that is currently available to them. We need to be able to examine the efficacy and potential harms of all medical approaches. The current political climate has made this nigh on impossible as any questioning of transgender ideology is shut down as bigotry. We are duty bound to question any new treatment protocols that do not have proven outcomes. First do no harm”

Speakers: see screenshot
Download at bottom of page:
www.standingforwomen.com/

Newsnight Tonight - Tavistock Clinic concerns
PearPickingPorky · 19/06/2020 09:34

Is Sonia Appleby still at GIDS?

RoyalCorgi · 19/06/2020 09:36

HandsOff - that's a very good article from the Sun. Surprised I haven't seen it before. Wanted to bang my head on my desk, though, when I saw that at the end they recommend going to Mermaids or Stonewall for more information.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 09:38

What is the name of the woman who was doing the investigative report? There's a wealth of information on the threads here on the topic

Deborah Cohen
(Twitter bio)
'Medically qualified, UK Correspondent BBCNewsnight
Ex investigations editor @ bmj_latest
2019 British Journalism Award winner'
twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1273718968734359566

Hannah Barnes
(Twitter bio)
'Senior Journalist at BBCNewsnight, formerly @ BBCRadioCA
Get in touch with stories - [email protected]'
twitter.com/hannahsbee

Newsnight Tonight - Tavistock Clinic concerns
nonsenceagain · 19/06/2020 09:39

Have to agree that Emily Maitlis has been pretty good on this. Retweets GC stuff at times.

twoHopes · 19/06/2020 09:39

I think the anorexia analogy is an interesting one.

Yes absolutely. I've said this before on here but I have a friend who is a very senior child mental health professional in the UK who believes the girls presenting as trans would have presented as anorexic 20 years ago. He tried to bring this up a few times and was immediately shut down as transphobic and threatened with losing his job.

There's so much going on here. It's not just Polly Carmichael, it's not even just the Tavi and Mermaids. It's full scale institutional capture of all the organisations that have influence on children. The BBC, schools, GPs, local councils...the list is endless.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 09:43

from the Sun article linked upthread:

(extract)
"However, Dr Littman’s methods were questioned and her theory was quickly rebuffed online by the transgender community.

Susie Green, CEO of Mermaids, a charity that supports transgender children and young people and their families, argues that it’s patronising to suggest children may simply be confused.

“The young people we see are not puzzled about their gender,” she says.

“They are saying, very clearly: ‘This is who I am.’ The truth is, numbers may not have actually increased.

Instead, people are making sense of the way they feel earlier and therefore more are seeking help.”

However, Stephanie Davies-Arai, founder of Transgender Trend, a UK campaign group made up of parents concerned about the rise in children identifying as transgender, disagrees.

“While anorexia or anxiety used to grip girls with body-image or self-esteem problems, these days switching gender could be seen as the latest coping mechanism,” she argues.

“There has been increased sexualisation of teenage girls, they don’t feel comfortable in their bodies and therefore they want to do something to alter it.

“In the past it was by eating less or cutting themselves, but now it seems the trend is to transition.” (continues)

Susie Green (CEO Mermaids) does not understand Safeguarding, Duty of Care or child & adolescent development.

OvaHere · 19/06/2020 09:45

I've said this before on here but I have a friend who is a very senior child mental health professional in the UK who believes the girls presenting as trans would have presented as anorexic 20 years ago.

I'd say even as recently as 10 years ago. In the first half of the 2000's partly due to the surge of the internet and partly coinciding with the emo trend I recall there were a lot of sites online that were pro-ana/self harm.

I think in part many of these were clamped down on alongside falling out of favour because gender identity came along and offered a new focus - one which everyone in authority supported unquestioned.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 09:53

I'd say even as recently as 10 years ago. In the first half of the 2000's partly due to the surge of the internet and partly coinciding with the emo trend I recall there were a lot of sites online that were pro-ana/self harm.

Women who have detransitioned have described the overlap and prevalence of online discussions by girls & younger women that are eating disorders / gender identity focussed.

NotBadConsidering · 19/06/2020 09:53

Is Sonia Appleby still at GIDS?

According to google, Sonia is still the named safeguarding contact person and, remarkably, is offering a one course of safeguarding:

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/contact-us/staff/sonia-appleby/

Maybe the staff at GIDS need a bit longer than one day.

NotBadConsidering · 19/06/2020 10:00

I would also be VERY interested to know what the lawsuit contains.

NonnyMouse1337 · 19/06/2020 10:03

[quote R0wantrees]What is the name of the woman who was doing the investigative report? There's a wealth of information on the threads here on the topic

Deborah Cohen
(Twitter bio)
'Medically qualified, UK Correspondent BBCNewsnight
Ex investigations editor @ bmj_latest
2019 British Journalism Award winner'
twitter.com/deb_cohen/status/1273718968734359566

Hannah Barnes
(Twitter bio)
'Senior Journalist at BBCNewsnight, formerly @ BBCRadioCA
Get in touch with stories - [email protected]'
twitter.com/hannahsbee[/quote]
Thank you!

VickyEadieofThigh · 19/06/2020 10:03

Susie Green (CEO Mermaids) does not understand Safeguarding, Duty of Care or child & adolescent development.

Why would she? Her 'qualification' is having had a trans child.

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 10:07

In 2016 Transgender Trend reported the Safeguarding issues & failings raised in last night's Newsnight.

'UK: Treatment Dilemmas in Puberty Suppression Seminar'
published: March 26, 2016

"We attended a seminar at Cambridge University entitled ‘Gender Non-Conforming Children: Treatment Dilemmas In Puberty Suppression’ presented by Bernadette Wren, Head of Psychology, Gender Identity Development Service, Tavistock & Portman NHS Foundation Trust. This post attempts to sum up her presentation, with our comments added under each section. There is much more to say, so we will be referencing some of these points more fully in future posts. There was unfortunately not enough time to ask all the questions we wanted to ask: the information given in this seminar raises more questions than answers.

Introduction
The staff at the Tavistock and Portman clinic feel that they are on the frontline of a social revolution and they get it from all sides. The issues they are dealing with are ethical as well as medical and psychological. There is tension between Tavistock and some trans advocacy groups especially in their use of the “suicide narrative” and promotion of personal stories based on memory – kids are being influenced by fearful stories about their futures, scaring them into making decisions. There is also great pressure from ‘parental advocacy groups’ for pre-pubertal blockers and treatment on demand based on self-determination.

We suspect that Mermaids is one of these pressure groups, given their rhetoric, and the obvious tension between Bernadette Wren and Susie Green of Mermaids at the Government trans inquiry. Tavistock has a good relationship with other trans advocacy groups and has worked with Gendered Intelligence, a fact we questioned, pointing out that G.I. go into schools and essentially normalise the idea to children that they can be the opposite sex and that they have a fixed ‘gender identity.’ We were pleased that the “suicide narrative” was acknowledged as we feel that ‘support groups’ threatening parents with their child’s possible suicide if they don’t transition is a particularly cruel form of manipulation and bullying of parents into putting a child onto the trans path through fear. (continues)

Vulnerable children who previously may have accessed mental health/children’s services are now increasingly presenting to gender clinics, their problems re-interpreted with one simple explanation and solution. Despite the lack of research or knowledge of the full effects of puberty blockers on a child’s brain, the known result of sterility if a child continues on to cross-sex hormones, and the impossibility of knowing how an individual child’s ‘identity’ may develop, the trans lobby advocates a clear halt to that development with puberty blockers administered as early as possible. The ‘reversibility’ of blockers is called into question here. Attending a gender clinic significantly increases the probability that a child will go on to transition, and once on puberty blockers, that outcome is all but assured. After just four assessments, a child under the age of twelve may be made a medical patient for life. (continues)

The transgender theory of an innate, fixed ‘gendered’ brain is unsupported by evidence. The diagnosis of transgender is dependent on a view of children and adolescents as autonomous agents capable of making their own decisions and choices in a bubble outside of any form of parental or cultural influences, and that the choice to define themselves as transgender is unrelated to any other personal beliefs, level of understanding, influences, experiences or psychological states. This is contrary to all knowledge of child and adolescent development and psychology. Parents have clearly been made fearful by the “suicide narrative” of trans advocacy groups and are typically intolerant of uncertainty, wanting a clear diagnosis which supports their own fixed beliefs of ‘normality.’ (continues)

Child and adult services are totally separate, so outcomes have not previously been tracked; the initiation of a cohort study is welcome, but long overdue. The status of children on the transition path will be raised to ‘guinea pigs’ whereas previously they weren’t even that. Given that ‘gender non-conformity’ is normal, it seems that the ‘problem’ has been created by cultural conditioning and parental investment in gender stereotypes, pressure on children to conform to those stereotypes, bullying of children who resist that pressure, and a concerted campaign by trans activists to convince everyone that those children who do not conform must be the opposite sex, a ‘solution’ which just reinforces the prejudices of the bullies. The idea that we should halt a child’s development, fill him or her with hormones and later surgically alter his or her body in order to meet society’s expectations of conformity, is chilling. (continues)

www.transgendertrend.com/uk-treatment-dilemmas-puberty-suppression-seminar/

happydappy2 · 19/06/2020 10:08

Transitioning potentially gay kids is the very definition of conversion therapy. Why can't those in positions of power see that?

ValancyRedfern · 19/06/2020 10:10

As someone who was anorexic in my teens, and still bulimic now in my 40s, I completely agree gender dysphoria is thew new anorexia. Are there any studies comparing rates of anorexia, self harm and gender dysphoria in teen girls over the last several decades?

Head of safeguarding at my school certainly says it's gone from eating disorders to self harm, luckily gd hasn't hit us yet....

R0wantrees · 19/06/2020 10:16

@VickyEadieofThigh

Susie Green (CEO Mermaids) does not understand Safeguarding, Duty of Care or child & adolescent development.

Why would she? Her 'qualification' is having had a trans child.

Susie Green has a child who was identified as transgender. All adults, particulary parents/carers, have a responsibility to Safeguard. CEO's of children' charities have an obligation not just to to understand but to work within Safeguarding frameworks. The absence of professionally experienced /informed trustees or staff at Mermaids has always been striking. Mermaids 'safeguarding' training was written by Susie Green.