To find it really difficult to support trans women now

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

I really tried to be kind and support trans women. I know it’s not the general tone on here.

I was absolutely not willing to do it at the expense of women’s safety and dignity but felt there was a middle ground and the argument was too polarised.

I suggested my problems with self ID were the chances of predatory males using it to get in to female spaces. The twitter responses to JKR have demonstrated that some trans women will threaten another woman with sexual violence if they disagree with her views on womanhood.

Can these violent, hate-filled people not see what they are doing to there cause?

I apologise to all the decent trans people out there but some of the aggression has left me fearful that the loudest voices in the community are advocating sexual violence.

(Apologies for the repetition of violent / violence but ... )

Saphos please, do set out what that validation of transwomen might look like. For all people that come under the trans umbrella. And set out exactly how that can safely co-exist with women’s and girls’ rights and protections in law.

By upholding and strengthening the exceptions in the Equality Act which outline the instances where it's lawful to treat trans women differently from women. For example in competitive sport and sensitive female only job roles such as sexual abuse counseling.

If the exceptions are upheld then the GRA 'validating' trans women as women is not problematic.

@SapphosRock

Ninkanink exactly. A middle ground is trans women getting the validation they want and women get the single sex rights and protections they need.

These two statements don't fly with each other. So which is it? Validation for male feelings or rights and protections for women? Because at some point a choice has to be made.

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces

Terrifying isn't it.

They just come across as thick as mince, or worse, narcissists

Spot on

There's no point supporting people who would never support you/are happy to see you lose rights for their own benefit. They're showing everyone what they really are now and I couldn't be happier about that. They're aggressive, violent men and always will be. There's no point reasoning with them because they will always play the victim. "When people (men) show you who they are, believe them the first time" - Maya Angelou.

Agree absolutely.

I don't see how framing her argument around 'I don't believe you' could ever end well. Particularly as she is asking to be believed.

This is a repulsive thing for anyone claiming to be supportive of women to say, Sapphos. I had honestly thought better of you.

That is not detailed enough.

Set out what it means in practical terms, how it will be enacted, and which validations women will be forced to comply with, without their consent.

I am really impressed by this 19 year old man.

The current mission of trans rights activism is to give becoming an immature, narcissistic transvestite full uninhibited free reign and is being cheer led by angry fans with little self control themselves.

This man in the video has or is getting to grips with autogynephillia, he is the future I think, not this angry madness we are witnessing. Humans need some self control or we will be watching men masturbate in every setting before long. Men are already watching women being sexually assaulted in every setting possible. It is scary.

I have periods I am a woman, I was born a girl, I went through puberty and I will go through the menopause and die a woman. I am not less of a woman because of anyone else. My friend Luke was born Lucy, I didn't know him until he was 14 and by that point he was already Luke. Luke is Luke -it was never an issue. i support his right to be male and his reason. If anyone transitions -in my mind they become the sex there have transitioned to. But if you 'identify' ie a man identifies as a woman -but doesn't transition he is a man identifying as a woman and not a woman although one day they might be. I'm all for trans rights -but I want to be known for my right to be a born woman.

By upholding and strengthening the exceptions in the Equality Act which outline the instances where it's lawful to treat trans women differently from women. For example in competitive sport and sensitive female only job roles such as sexual abuse counselling

But many trans people would consider that completely transphobic and wouldn’t accept it?

@Ninkanink I'd love to but with a new baby I really don't have the time. I've thrashed this argument out many times with Datun et al, feel free to search old posts and have a read.

And yet, here you are.

You will need to do better than that.

There was an interesting thread on twitter from Kathleen Stock, who said their timeline was full of transpeople supporting JKR and discussing their biology and non trans getting angry about the literal violence directed towards transpeople from JKR and her ilk. I have seen this a lot, both online and in real life . It is MRAs.

It's been clear for quite a while that there are men whose only stake in any of this is that it gives them a convenient excuse to attack women and pretend they're not doing so for misogynistic reasons, and that those men are among the loudest voices in this "debate". While everyone else is struggling to one degree or another they're having the time of their lives.

I am prepared to accept that people can legally change sex. I am not prepared to believe that people can magically change sex. That is what it boils down to for me.

As Saphos apparently can no longer participate in this discussion in any meaningful sense, I will get back to what I had originally intended which was actually to address the OP:

Please, do not feel that your wish to support those who actually need it does not match the general tone on here, as you put it. That is completely untrue. Countless women before you have been where you were, have also been where you are now, and have had to come to the same conclusion.

If we see feminism/feminists/women who post in this section as an entity on MN (whereas of course, we’re not a hive mind, this section is made up of many hundreds of individuals, each with differing opinions and nuances in our views), then we have never been anti-trans, nor transphobic. We have always addressed this issue by saying we completely support the rights of transgender people to live peacefully without fear of harm BUT absolutely not at the expense of women’s and girls’ rights and protections. That is not hateful. Women saying, no, this is not okay, is not hateful.

But as you say, there is no middle ground. And if you force me to choose, I know exactly where my line is. I will not be moved.

I’ll be back but I just wanted to address that part of your opening post.

Above @Shockedandbefuddled just to ensure she sees it.

Also, be very careful with ‘Be Kind’ - more often than not it means ‘Know your place, shut your mouth.’

You are under no obligation to be kind to those who do not wish you well.

That was really uncalled for Squirrel. What a horrible thing to say.

@SapphosRock

That was really uncalled for Squirrel. What a horrible thing to say.

I agree with @SapphosRock.

That was completely uncalled for @Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel

Have to say I agree, no need to be personal like that. Some things are better left unsaid.

@Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel

@Ninkanink I'd love to but with a new baby I really don't have the time. I've thrashed this argument out many times with Datun et al, feel free to search old posts and have a read

With your attitude Sapphos I feel very sad for and sorry for your baby.

That is a vile thing to say

I also think that crossed the line, squirrels.

We can disagree, argue and get into heated debates, but there's no justification for jibes like that, squirrel.

Sapphos has said vile things. I stand by it.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

I also think that crossed the line, squirrels.

Yeah

I really wish people would keep posters children out of these arguments/debates