To find it really difficult to support trans women now

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

I really tried to be kind and support trans women. I know it’s not the general tone on here.

I was absolutely not willing to do it at the expense of women’s safety and dignity but felt there was a middle ground and the argument was too polarised.

I suggested my problems with self ID were the chances of predatory males using it to get in to female spaces. The twitter responses to JKR have demonstrated that some trans women will threaten another woman with sexual violence if they disagree with her views on womanhood.

Can these violent, hate-filled people not see what they are doing to there cause?

I apologise to all the decent trans people out there but some of the aggression has left me fearful that the loudest voices in the community are advocating sexual violence.

(Apologies for the repetition of violent / violence but ... )

It really shouldn't have to be a zero sum game, it should be possible to support all groups in this situation who have their own different vulnerabilities, experiences, needs.

It's the activist political lobby which have turned it into either or, one or the other. Unless you are emphatically anti female, you cannot be seen as caring about trans females. The very thought of even listening to females talk about their needs has become framed as threatening and evil. I keep trying to understand why; is the loss of the sole focus of sympathy so crucial? Or is that if people are allowed to hear female people talk about their needs for female only provision, if those needs are heard, then it is not possible to rip away all female only provision from females and exclude and disenfranchise many females to provide unhappy males with the validation they seek?

I care about and support people who are trans, the same way I care about and support all people. All of whom have different needs. All of whom have to accept boundaries to their wishes and wants because the reality is that everyone matters, and it cannot be a hierarchy of who wins and who loses. It has to be systems that recognise and meet the needs of everyone equally.

In the long term, that only leads to resentment, anger and trouble. Peace and happiness and better inclusion is not at the end of that road, it goes nowhere good.

Unless you are emphatically anti female, you cannot be seen as caring about trans females

That should say trans people. I don't believe people change sex. I believe they are perfect the way they are.

Of course you can support trans people.

Why would you not?

I do hope you are posting in good faith OP and not trying to harvest screenshots because a) you won't find transphobia here b) well, a)

JKR has sure whacked the hornet's nest. Looks like it was very deliberate too.

Don't misrepresent her words. Have you actually read her essay? At no point has she insulted or wished harm upon trans people. All she has done is calmly and clearly explained her (extremely valid) reasons for wanting to safeguard female single-sex spaces, and has revealed very personal and upsetting information in order to show why she knows such spaces are important.

She has DELIBERATELY tried to ensure protections for vulnerable women remain in place. She has DELIBERATELY tried to speak out against the medical harm being done to confused young people. That is not "whacking the hornets' nest".

Wow that is exactly how I feel. They are certainly alienating women with this shocking attitude.

Thanks for the post I was actually discussing this with a friend earlier.

I've seen more and more transexuals (they use this to distinguish themselves from the TRA's in Twitter) voicing their concerns, support for women and their belief in biology and need for third spaces. They are trying to distance themselves from transgenderism as they can see how damaging it is.

These are the people I fear for. The transmen and transwomen who actually get it, who care about the rights of women and children, the ones that know the difference between sex and gender. They get abuse from the TRA's for not towing the line and I fear that when a backlash happens they will be tarred with the same brush as the mob that currently runs riot on Social media.

I'm in my early 50s. My experience of transwomen has come in many shapes and sizes and until recently my understanding of them was that they were so dysmorphic and traumatised by the genitalia they were born with they were desperate for the surgery to ease their suffering - they were rejecting and being disgusted by their physical form and prepared to suffer for a while to achieve peace. I felt sympathy for them, they were my friends and suffering and I wanted that to stop because we had the technology.

The new wave of transwomen who seem to be perfectly comfortable with their male genitalia and demand we simply feminise it and accommodate it because they "think" they "feel" like a woman utterly undermines the struggles of my trans friends and makes a mockery of it, along with informing women that they must allow them to appropriate womanhood or they will threaten us with the very malehood that they deny.

Trans has become a trend rather than the complex psychological issue that it is, which is unique to every person on a trans journey.

Women suffer trauma, body dysmorphia, abuse and violence and yet often the narrative is that women have somehow contributed to it through their womanhood. Therapy can suggest that women need to work on themselves to make them more accepted in their families and wider world rather than really addressing the root cause of their issues. Now the exploration of psychological issues that may contribute to someone feeling they are trans must be ignored because they "Just know". When a woman "just knows" something is wrong with them medically they may just end up on anti-depressants with a side order of mindfulness and a colouring book. But trans is validated seemingly unquestioningly - although I wonder whether women who want to transition get the same free pass as males? I must look that up because everywhere is awash with the stories of transwomen, while transmen, like women, seem in the main to quietly "get on with it".

As for non-binary, queer, two spirit etc etc surely they are free to live their best lives without telling women that they must modify their lives in order to do so.

Honestly it all baffles me to the nth degree - The thread yesterday about FGM left me boggling and horrified.

Where the fuck are we supposed to go from here?

I feel similarly to you having previously held a more middling view. I find it so incredibly worrying to hear people bringing up the inherent risk to women that comes from self ID as a policy, being vehemently silenced as transphobic. If you genuinely care about the well being of all people, which is what these people claim to be focused on, then you should be able to enter into that discussion and care about the people on both sides.

Cancel culture has reached the point that it no longer distinguishes between true bigotry and somebody voicing a nuanced, so not immediately overwhelmingly positive, but broadly well intentioned concern over real issues. Those people are entering a cultural blacklist, with former colleagues being expected to completely disassociate with them, which is not how normal relationships work when people disagree on core subjects but believe the other person to be decent and not motivated by bigotry. It's making a society where we are expected to completely write someone off when we disagree with them. It's an awful, unkind world that is being created, "be kind" had no lasting impact at all.

Transwomen should absolutely be supported to live their lives freely, have all their rights protected, have access to healthcare, and face no stigma, discrimination or hatred.

As others have said above, many of the more vociferous spokespeople for the genderist movement aren't actually trans themselves. A large part of this movement overlaps with MRA/incel types. It's being used as a vehicle from which to attack women.

The actual people who pose threats to anyone just because they don't conform to gender stereotypes or look different or choose to live differently? I'll give you a hint - they're not feminists.

I mean, women have been saying this for a long time, nobody listens.

Its all very disturbing and upsetting. I'm very much GC and am terrified for women's right to safe spaces. But, I do have one TW friend who is nothing like the TRAs we are seeing all over social media. I do worry she is going to get swept up in all this hate

Twitter is a very difficult and hostile medium for women.

As another poster said the men threatening JKR with sexual violence aren't necessarily all TW and because it's twitter the ones with anime profiles, trans and she/her in their bio might not actually be trans in real life. There's a lot of mileage to be had in LARPing on the internet as a handy cover to abuse women.

However I think we can be sure that how ever they identify the worst threats come from people with penises.

That said, and as vile as the twitter abuse is, I'm actually more concerned about the politer, more professional lobbyists working unseen, doing backroom deals to dismantle women's rights and protections.

IMO that's where the real danger lies.

@ILikeyourHairyHands

I'm not entirely sure the people who react so violently are actually trans-women, I think they're just angry, sexually dysfunctional, hetero misogynists.

Unfortunately a major part of the demands is that anyone who says they are women are women. So if they say they are trans we have to accept that.

There is no way to differentiate between transwomen who genuinely feel they are female and are no threat (the two are not always the same anyway) and those who are using it to take advantage. Which is why the middle ground just doesn't work. A fact I hate and have looked at many many unsuccessful work arounds!

I am happy to hear so many posters here agreeing trans people should be able to live their lives happily and be supported.

It is really horrible to see the vicious anti-woman hate from what I assume is a small, but very damaging group.

Someone on another thread said something along the lines of ‘if reality upsets and triggers you that much then you should get therapy to help you accept yourself, not expect the world to go along with your delusion‘, and that’s how I feel about trans people. If you’re a man and you want to wear a dress and call yourself Susan that’s fine, just don’t expect me to actually believe that you are a female in the same way I am. It’s not my job to validate your identity.

And I truly do wonder if trans people are getting the best care, are they getting access to therapy and is it really in their best interests to be affirmed? After all if someone has anorexia we wouldn’t encourage them to lose weight.

I'm not entirely sure the people who react so violently are actually trans-women, I think they're just angry, sexually dysfunctional, hetero misogynists.

Agreed. In my experience trans women generally just want to live quiet and peaceful lives, not engage in activism.

I agree as well - but see that the problem with TWAW and self-ID is that by virtue of just these saying they are transwomen, then they are transwomen. They demonstrate absolutely the dangerous ridiculousness of self-ID.

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

OP, it doesn’t get any clearer than that.

JK’s courage is a shining light.

There is a really interesting article here. Well
Worth reading (if you can. I have no idea if it's behind a paywall or not)

www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-cancelling-of-jk-rowling-is-really-about

Cuntsplain? Sexual assault and domestic violence, and single motherhood is ‘weak’ life experience to be able to explain why sex is lived reality and single sex spaces are vital.
Huh.
What would you have used as your argument to convince transwomen to back the fuck down and stop threatening women, Sappho?

@AtrociousCircumstance

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

OP, it doesn’t get any clearer than that.

JK’s courage is a shining light.

This

@SapphosRock

Can you please quote directly the part where J K Rowling "c**plains what it means to be trans"? I must have missed that part.

Blackdoggotmytonguestill I would ask Daniel Radcliffe to imagine his mother or sister was sexually assaulted by a man. Then I would ask him to imagine they wanted to see a female rape crisis counsellor.

I would ask him to imagine that female rape crisis counsellor was a male presenting trans woman with a penis. Then I would ask him to look his mum or sister in the eye and tell them trans women are women.

I wouldn't do what JKR has done and pretend I have any knowledge of what being transgender feels like.

OP, do not make your decisions based on a Twitter abusefest. Put aside every personal insult on twitter, read what is left and make your own decision.

@LittleCabbage here you go:

I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.