To find it really difficult to support trans women now

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

I really tried to be kind and support trans women. I know it’s not the general tone on here.

I was absolutely not willing to do it at the expense of women’s safety and dignity but felt there was a middle ground and the argument was too polarised.

I suggested my problems with self ID were the chances of predatory males using it to get in to female spaces. The twitter responses to JKR have demonstrated that some trans women will threaten another woman with sexual violence if they disagree with her views on womanhood.

Can these violent, hate-filled people not see what they are doing to there cause?

I apologise to all the decent trans people out there but some of the aggression has left me fearful that the loudest voices in the community are advocating sexual violence.

(Apologies for the repetition of violent / violence but ... )

Bishopgiggles - on the one hand, people want me to answer.
If I do, it't's derailing, if I don't, it's refusing to answer.

Not DARVO. What happens.
Can't win.

Exactly, you see it as how you can 'win' rather than how you engage with the OP.

@dementedma

I hope all transwomen lead a happy and successful life, I hope they find a way to be happy in their skin and bodies, I will intervene if they are harassed and abused.

and I will fight to the death for women only spaces to be for women and for the female sex to exist as itself, not as a subset of the male sex

Transwomen are not women. And that’s ok. Be transwomen and be proud of yourselves. But don’t try and eradicate the right of natal women (or just “women”) to exist. Flame me, I’m past caring. This matters.

Perfectly said. Perhaps we need to all repeat this on a loop until it sinks in to all the haters

[quote SapphosRock]@twoHopes it's a bit like a straight woman saying to a lesbian 'oh don't worry, I had crushes on girls when I was younger and I'm not a lesbian so you're not either' [/quote]
Jo Rowling did not say anything remotely similar to your analogy.

You are reaching awfully hard.

“JKR says the sky is blue”

Group of same old posters: “I wouldn’t say she’s saying the sky is blue, she’s clearly saying that she hates trans people. That’s how I took it anyway, we are allowed to disagree with you, you know.”

Exactly, you see it as how you can 'win' rather than how you engage with the OP

That's not what I said at all.
No idea where you're from, obviously but here in UK where I am it's a common saying, nothing to do with winning.
Means basically whatever you do or say you're damned.

dementedma
I hope all transwomen lead a happy and successful life, I hope they find a way to be happy in their skin and bodies, I will intervene if they are harassed and abused.

and I will fight to the death for women only spaces to be for women and for the female sex to exist as itself, not as a subset of the male sex

Transwomen are not women. And that’s ok. Be transwomen and be proud of yourselves. But don’t try and eradicate the right of natal women (or just “women”) to exist. Flame me, I’m past caring. This matters.

I also agree with all of this wholeheartedly

“JKR says the sky is blue”

Blue is for boys, as we all know - she's denying transwomen's existence!

@bluebluezoo

Eh? I would say 99% of females are happy being women and 99% of males are happy being men

I am happy with my biology. I am not happy with my gender. I don’t like dresses, “pampering”, nails, eyebrows, grooming, make up, tan, heels. I don’t like that I am expected to take on the bulk of cleaning and caring for children. I don’t like that post or emails on joint accounts or bookings end up addressed to my husband when all dealings have been with me. I don’t like when I pay for meals my credit card is always handed to my husband as it is assumed the “dr” is male.

I don’t like that I am not expected to understand how things like gas accounts work. I don’t like that I, as a woman, negotiated part time at work relatively easily, yet when my husband tries to the same, or take time off to take kids to the dr’s or see a school play he is met by a puzzled look and “can’t your wife do it”.

I don’t like that the local laundrette did fucking vouchers and advertised them as a mothers day present. I don’t like that I get bought household appliances and soft furnishings as birthday and christmas gifts when my husband gets personal things. I don’t like that I am bought make up as people think i might just not know about nude palettes rather than choosing not to wear it.

I don’t like that my physical strength and sporting ability was always seen as a bad thing. That I might develop muscles that weren’t ladylike and boys would find it intimidating.

I don’t like that many people see “Mrs” as a higher achievement than “Dr”.

I could go on.. but generally gender can fuck off along with all its stereotypes...

Nailed it

Blue is for boys, as we all know - she's denying transwomen's existence!

@Shockedandbefuddled

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

I really tried to be kind and support trans women. I know it’s not the general tone on here.

I was absolutely not willing to do it at the expense of women’s safety and dignity but felt there was a middle ground and the argument was too polarised.

I suggested my problems with self ID were the chances of predatory males using it to get in to female spaces. The twitter responses to JKR have demonstrated that some trans women will threaten another woman with sexual violence if they disagree with her views on womanhood.

Can these violent, hate-filled people not see what they are doing to there cause?

I apologise to all the decent trans people out there but some of the aggression has left me fearful that the loudest voices in the community are advocating sexual violence.

(Apologies for the repetition of violent / violence but ... )

My impression of "the tone here" (and I do more lurking than posting, but recent events...) is that most posters started off at the 'trying to be kind and support trans women' point, but they've seen so much of the ugliness that it's exhausting. This forum is so demonised in the outside-world but I have never seen anything here that's remotely comparable to the casual choke-on-my-lady-dick misogyny that is spouted by supporters of trans rights. As with JKR, there is a lot of 'I do want trans people to be safe and well, actually, but not at the expense of women' - the fact that statements like this are now claimed as 'literal violence' is just so depressing.

I used to get into tearful arguments with people who said anything remotely 'unwoke' about trans people. But the activism is vile. OP, you use the term 'middle ground' - that's not allowed under their doctrine. Any debate or discussion somehow equals 'questioning their existence'/'right to exist'. Between the constant threats of sexual violence, the general misogyny, the refusal to debate, and the absolute refusal to condemn threats and misogyny (you would think that there would be at least a bit of "oh those people don't speak for us/aren't really trans") - it is scary. I know that there are trans people who are terrified to speak up against this stuff as well, because they will be attacked for it.

It's scary that the toxic nature of the activism hasn't put more people off, to be honest. The sense that 'women who have wrong thoughts deserve rape threats' is very strong.

It takes a lot of effort and emotional energy to 'be kind' in the face of this stuff and I think it's really, really telling how many allegedly 'TRF'-y women are, and yet are attacked viciously for not agreeing 100% with the (ever-changing) ideology. (The men committing actual violence* against trans people - why bother with them when you can blame women who have opinions? Ugh.)

I am kind and supportive.

And that's the thing, if you insist men are menwomen then force women to lie about themselves and their needs in order to accommodate menwomen then I must object because you are being unkind.

I have to stop you because I am kind and supportive, to myself, to women, to humanity and of course you - bullies hurt themselves.

Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and beliefs. That means no one is compelled to obey someone else's thoughts and beliefs.

bluebluezoo

Perfect description!

In a hurry so haven't read all posts, but what fucks me off completely is that every single feminist issue is gaslighting with, "but what about tw". It's completely deliberate.

Probably most trans people want to live and coexist peacefully, that's fab. I wouldn't notice any non females in a bathroom, locker room or shop changing room unless they were obviously after validation and attention.

There is huge money in being or even pretending to be trans, or gnc, from diversity jobs, medical pathways including counselors who push this ideology, and it is such a way to earn woke cookies and sympathy (look at all the patrons and PayPal accounts people pay into after sob story after sob story).

People like fox and owl who have made careers out of being trans, mermaids, etc. It is just a complete cancer that is eroding womens right to advocate for themselves.

It's deliberate and evil. Rant over for now, gtg...

Worth remembering that Sapphos is in a Facebook group with trans activists

This is so funny

For the record the Facebook group I'm in with Mermaids trustee Bobbi Pickard has absolutely nothing to do with trans activism. Zilch.

Is it really so much of a stretch to imagine a woman and trans woman could have a common interest?

Back to JKR comparing her own gender experiences to the trans experience. Gay people have been told since the dawn of time that 'it's just a phase' and 'you're being influenced' and 'you'll grow out of it' and 'you will end of up straight'.

Now trans people are being told the same thing by the likes of JKR. It's just a phase, they will likely de-transition etc etc. If JKR believes this then that's her prerogative but I can't see how it is helpful to say so. She comes across as arrogant and dismissive and it weakens her otherwise excellent argument.

If she expects people to believe her about her DV experiences (which I do) then she has to offer the same courtesy to people trying to educate her about the trans experience.

Goodness. She was talking about her own experience, not some mythical shared “trans experience”. Why do you not believe what she says about her own experience and considering it in context of what if she was her adolescent self, feeling as she did, growing up in today’s world?

Many, many of us recognise what she describes and feel the same, many of us who struggled with adolescence and puberty and femininity, with gendered expectations foisted upon us because of our sex and with the sexist and misogynist abuse we suffered, with understanding our own sexualities, mental health issues, low self esteem,

trying to understand ourselves, the world around us and our place in it.

I have zero doubt that were I a teenager now I would be identifying as trans in some way, zero doubt whatsoever. And that is no terrible thing in and of itself, it would be absolutely fine, brilliant even if it had helped my adolescent self navigate that horrific time in my life with less dis-ease and more sense of belonging to something then it would have been fantastic. If it were not for the next step to realising a trans identity being funnelling young people into a gender identity clinic for external affirmation, hormonal treatment and surgery.

You want to believe what people say about their own experiences, well then don’t “"

Ha. Cat knocked my phone, it’s breakfast time. My point is, picking and choosing which bits of people’s personal testimony you believe/accept just reinforces your own personal bias, and prevents you from understanding others’ points of view. Maybe consider being a little more open minded when reading views and experiences that differ from your own

T/MRAs: "Trans people are who they say they are and must be believed at all costs. They say they feel like women so they are women."

Also M/TRAs: "Disbelieve women when they talk about their own experiences, if they do not subscribe to our ideology. If they say they feel like trans people they are lying/mistaken."

Also T/MRAs "I am a woman with a deep and innate sense of womanness that matches my physical body. Therefore I speak for all "cis" women including the above example and must be believed."

Would you like blue cheese dressing or balsamic vinegar on that tasty word salad?

My point is, picking and choosing which bits of people’s personal testimony you believe/accept just reinforces your own personal bias

Well exactly. If someone born male says "I just know that inside I'm really a woman" we're supposed to accept that without question. But if someone like JKR says "I felt very uncomfortable in my body and would have been tempted to transition as a teenager" then apparently that's bollocks and offensive.

You can't have it both ways.

How interesting that a woman is being accused of ‘cuntsplaining’, (not transplaining) but a man is accused of ‘mansplaining’

I wonder why, when it applies to a women, a term that is widely considered to be derogatory is used.

Let me think.

Think pp have run with the wrong c** word in that case.

The other c word is just as offensive.

I am not a subset of something a man has decided that he is. I am a woman.

JK was not talking about the trans experience. She was talking about her own experience, within a wider context.

I don't see how framing her argument around 'I don't believe you' could ever end well. Particularly as she is asking to be believed.