To find it really difficult to support trans women now

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

I really tried to be kind and support trans women. I know it’s not the general tone on here.

I was absolutely not willing to do it at the expense of women’s safety and dignity but felt there was a middle ground and the argument was too polarised.

I suggested my problems with self ID were the chances of predatory males using it to get in to female spaces. The twitter responses to JKR have demonstrated that some trans women will threaten another woman with sexual violence if they disagree with her views on womanhood.

Can these violent, hate-filled people not see what they are doing to there cause?

I apologise to all the decent trans people out there but some of the aggression has left me fearful that the loudest voices in the community are advocating sexual violence.

(Apologies for the repetition of violent / violence but ... )

I've a huge amount of sympathy for people suffering from gender dysphoria and I do absolutely support them and strongly believe they should be treated with respect and dignity

I do have a big problem sharing female spaces with "Samantha" who yesterday was "Sam" (and intends to be Sam 2 days next week) and has zero intention of transitioning any further than wearing a dress and putting on lipstick

This. Exactly this.

Thanks Squirrel

Sounds like we are on the same page.

What discrimination to transwomen actually face?

How does it compare to discrimination women face?

Men who decided to become transwomen are used to being men and not facing such discrimination.

We don't hear much from Transmen who used to be women - they were already used to discrimination.

What an odd post MrsKypp

Suggesting that trans women don't face discrimination is like white people suggesting racism doesn't exist.

I think perhaps the message is that the problems and discriminations that transwomen face is rather different to the problems and discriminations faced by women

Although agree , very badly put!

The only transwoman I know is too busy posting about #BLM to worry about jk Rowling.

@SapphosRock

What an odd post MrsKypp

Suggesting that trans women don't face discrimination is like white people suggesting racism doesn't exist.

Hi

I wasn't suggesting Transwomen don't face discrimination.

Women do, so I was asking what discrimination do Transwomen face. They are biologically male, so have the physical strength of a man and don't take time out of their careers due to pregnancy and childbirth etc.

Can anyone answer? Are there any statistics about income, job interviews, derogatory remarks etc etc ?

How does the discrimination that Transwomen face compare and contrast with the discrimination women face?

Why are women who stand up for women's rights accused of being Transphobic?

I am simply asking questions that I don't know the answers to and maybe someone here does.

Sorry for the odd post, maybe I am odd. Probably am!

Suggesting that trans women don't face discrimination is like white people suggesting racism doesn't exist.

MrsKypp didn’t suggest anything, Sapphos.

She simply asked some questions.

Oh right I see! Well as this Board is predominantly women you probably won't get many answers from trans women but you could always read the Stonewall report:

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/system/files/lgbtinnbritain--transreportt_final.pdf

@midgebabe

I think perhaps the message is that the problems and discriminations that transwomen face is rather different to the problems and discriminations faced by women

Although agree , very badly put!

Hi

My apologies for putting it badly.

You got the meaning behind my post though - I'd like to know the similarities and differences between discrimination against women and against Transwomen.

Obviously, one could be that they have deep voices. There is a Transwoman in my Pilates class, and the first time she spoke, I thought oh, she must be a Transwoman and I sensed the others thinking the same - but nobody said anything or did anything. After about 2 seconds we had realised and accepted it. But I can imagine a deep voice could receive mean comments, for example, whereas discrimination against women would be different to that.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

Suggesting that trans women don't face discrimination is like white people suggesting racism doesn't exist.

MrsKypp didn’t suggest anything, Sapphos.

She simply asked some questions.

Thanks DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

It's nice when people speak up! Thanks again.

Oh right I see! Well as this Board is predominantly women you probably won't get many answers from trans women but you could always read the Stonewall report

Or you could watch some paint dry. The effect is much the same

I believe transpeople suffer discrimination, (actually the word I want here is prejudice, I tend to think of discrimination more in a legal sense around employment and housing), based on homophobia - because they look different or stand-out.

I am sympathetic to that kind of fear, having many gay friends who have experience frightening situations and actual harm at the hands of transphobic men.

On the other hand, lessening the chances of those kinds of situations by putting male-bodied people into women’s spaces is putting women at risk, and I don’t think that’s acceptable. Women are not society’s pool fencing.

So Squirrel's contribution to the thread so far ... a vile, personal comment about me and my child then saying that reading about the discrimination faced by her fellow human beings is like watching paint dry. Nice.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman I agree, I think prejudice is a more fitting word than discrimination.

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman

I believe transpeople suffer discrimination, (actually the word I want here is prejudice, I tend to think of discrimination more in a legal sense around employment and housing), based on homophobia - because they look different or stand-out.

I am sympathetic to that kind of fear, having many gay friends who have experience frightening situations and actual harm at the hands of transphobic men.

On the other hand, lessening the chances of those kinds of situations by putting male-bodied people into women’s spaces is putting women at risk, and I don’t think that’s acceptable. Women are not society’s pool fencing.

You have pretty much summed up what I was thinking.

Interesting differentiation that sounds really logical:

Women face discrimination while Transwomen face prejudice.

Women face misogyny while Transwomen face homophobia

Totally agree that male bodied people should never be allowed into women's spaces.

So Squirrel's contribution to the thread so far ... a vile, personal comment about me and my child then saying that reading about the discrimination faced by her fellow human beings is like watching paint dry. Nice.

Come now Sapphos. I didn't make a vile personal comment about you or your child. At all. Don't make things up. I said I felt sorry for said child having seen your attitude and your comments which aren't exactly pleasant

As for reading a link that I personally have no interest in, I'm entitled to state as such.

Trans women are trans women . Hence Trans. From what I've seen they're mostly just aggressive,angry men shouting suck my dick and far far worse at anyone who dares question the obvious.

Why should we put up with this farce, why should we be targeted in their efforts to reduce women to nothing. To access women only spaces? We shouldn't and must not.

@DeRigueurMortis

it's great to read some common sense written about this subject.

Squirrel you had six or so other posters point out your comment was vile. The right thing to do would be apologise.

And you seem to be confusing trans women with TRAs.

The root of homophobia is misogyny.

When gay men are despised it's because they are seen to be more like women than their own sex class, men.

When lesbians are despised, it's because they transgress against ideas of proper femininity for women, one of which is that men are centred.

Any society that finally decides to deal with misogyny will also see decreases in homophobia. Actual transphobia too, because the root of actual transphobia is - again - misogyny.

The only transwomen I can support are the transwomen who hear a woman's 'no' and respect it.

They need to be in touch with reality as well.

In general, I can support - though what we mean by support I don't really know - gay transwomen who know they are male, support sex-based rights for women, form relationships with other men, and don't try to transplain what being a woman is to women, because they know they're not. Who also understand child safeguarding and promote therapy + waiting for under 18's.

So I suppose I only 'know' one person fitting this bill, and that's online. And I support them in terms of not finding their choices problematic for women and girls, other than the way they fail to apply any kind of critique to their own performance of femininity, which is a common failure not specific to transwomen.

I don't support AGP men in any way, other than believing that they should have the same human rights as anyone else in the world. No less but definitely no more. I don't have any respect for the AGP's I've known - they left broken families, abused wives and bullied co-workers in their wake.

I've not read detail, but Times onļine has an item announcing government has decided not to force women to accept men (self defined as ducks or anything else, ) in women only spaces.

Actually some of what I’ve seen on Twitter today means I can support transgender women now. I can fully support gender neutral and third spaces without risk to females.

There have been quite a few comments from both LGB and trans communities pointing out how much damage the aggressive TRAs are doing to the trans cause and young people, as well as the importance of safeguarding for women and children.

I know there have been other threads asking whether JKR knew what she was doing and whether she expected the backlash. I think she knew exactly what would happen and has played it brilliantly.

Still lots of the opposition saying they don’t need to read what she’s written as she’s a misogynist terf.

I am still playing mental gymnastics with many of the arguments.

Unfortunately most people I know still believe all transgender women are people like India Willoughby rather than Karen White. However, lots have seen the toxic masculinity of the sexually violent responses to JKR and are beginning to wonder if self ID would be a mistake.

I don’t support gender neutral spaces if it means doing away with female only. Only in addition to.

The first and only time I used a mixed sex ‘changing village’ a man twice my age put his head under the gap under my cubicle.

I felt the same op, but then took a deep breath and realised being just as much of a dick doesn't help anything.

(Also not all the comments were like that. I had to remind myself of the very gentle trans people I know who, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, are actually really vulnerable and confused). I'm gender critical and I'm not sure current trends are helping them longterm, but you really can't tar them all with the same brush. As then that is transphobic. 🤷‍♀️

(Also a lot of people on here have dealt with a lot of shit from men so are understandable cynical, but be careful. It does get overly nasty).