To find it really difficult to support trans women now

[Shockedandbefuddled]

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

I really tried to be kind and support trans women. I know it’s not the general tone on here.

I was absolutely not willing to do it at the expense of women’s safety and dignity but felt there was a middle ground and the argument was too polarised.

I suggested my problems with self ID were the chances of predatory males using it to get in to female spaces. The twitter responses to JKR have demonstrated that some trans women will threaten another woman with sexual violence if they disagree with her views on womanhood.

Can these violent, hate-filled people not see what they are doing to there cause?

I apologise to all the decent trans people out there but some of the aggression has left me fearful that the loudest voices in the community are advocating sexual violence.

(Apologies for the repetition of violent / violence but ... )

Oopsie

I may not have been clear, i agree with your post littlecabbage

I think JK is so amazingly brave. I couldn't love her more.
It's great that this bollocks is getting discussed more openly now.

I've never been afraid to discuss my views in public before this. And JK has reminded me that we WOMEN need to stick together on this & face these misogynists down!
Don't call me fucking natal or cis!!!

The only thing is, you don't actually know what her gender identity really deep down is. She could actually be trans.

What is trans? An identity that does not match with the identity assumed because of your sex? An identity that loathes the physical form it is in? An identity that finds more in common with the opposite sex ? I doubt I am alone in being a female to whom those conditions apply but who is resigned to being female

I do truely believe that gender dysmorphia is something that a significant proportion of teenage girls experience and that to deny that, or to claim that it's irrelevant because it resolves itself at a later age, is frankly horrific and exclusionary

Don't be daft @lemonadeanddaisychains . The only definition of trans "where your 'gender' doesn't match your sex" applies to me and JK Rowling and pretty much everyone who ever lived. That's why entire social, political and judicial systems have grown up to try and enforce gender according to sex, over millenia, pretty much everywhere. Because not feeling like your prescribed 'gender' matches your sex is the normal fucking state of being!

@Notmyname123

The obsession with trans on this site is really quite unhealthy. The whole issue of Rowling has been hashed out so many times, with the same points being made over and over again. There are valid points to be made, and they have been, but this constant repetition verges on the brink of demonising people the vast majority of whom are utterly harmless.

What do you mean by unhealthy? Women are standing up for their rights to privacy, dignity, safety and protection. What is unhealthy about that?

Do you think women should just shut up and keep quiet?

The vast majority of men don't pose a danger to women. Should they be allowed to share our private spaces, take places in our sport, provide intimate care etc?

It's the women who have been demonised in this discussion. We have been blamed for suicide and murder worldwide.

Don't be daft @lemonadeanddaisychains**

Still allowed a different opinion to you without you feeling the need to patronise others for not agreeing.

@notmyname123 could you bring me back a suffragette badge from your natural home in 1912 please? You'll recognise them as those 'unhealthy' women with sashes over their shoulders, utterly 'obsessed' with obtaining the vote. Constantly 'repeating' that point over and over again.

Not getting into that tone-policing nonsense. Address the points made.

There are valid points to be made, and they have been
Exactly

What do you mean by unhealthy?

title for a start, before you even need to look at the rest of the thread
To find it really difficult to support trans women now

but this constant repetition verges on the brink of demonising people the vast majority of whom are utterly harmless
This - just look at the title FGS. Branding trans people into one big lump, it spreads fear, it's othering and it's utterly toxic.

Because not feeling like your prescribed 'gender' matches your sex is the normal fucking state of being!

Eh? I would say 99% of females are happy being women and 99% of males are happy being men.

[quote LemonadeAndDaisyChains]@SapphosRock
LittleCabbage of course I've read her essay and I think she's coming from a good place, but is terribly misguided. Assuming you're a woman, how irritating did you find Daniel Radcliffe mansplaining what a woman means? I found it extremely irritating. Now imagine you're a trans person, how irritating would it be to have a non-trans person c splain what it means to be trans? She arrogantly dismisses their experiences as it didn't match her own

Good post, well said[/quote]
This is the crux of the mantra 'trans women are women' though and why it's a problem.

Nobody was willing to stop at trans women are trans women and embrace different lived experiences.

I would believe 99% of men much more easily than 99% of women

Actually the thread title is quite appropriate.

From my perspective it encompasses my feelings about the issue because I want to support transwomen as individuals striving for their comfort and a sense of peace and acceptance but the branding of trans into one big lump has been done for us without the very movement advocating for them stopping to consider that they are all individuals under a particular umbrella. I can't support a transwoman who expresses themselves violently to the very class of person they expect to include them.

In addition, if the only support "transwomen" - as their advocate's self identified homogenous lump - want from me is to validate their feelings, deny biology and shut up and sit down when women's rights are undermined, then I have a huge difficulty with that - because women.

Because not feeling like your prescribed 'gender' matches your sex is the normal fucking state of being!

Not sure I get this point?
I definitely match up and a hell of a lot of other people will no doubt too, is this like a "everybody says they're gay nowadays?!"
If not and you meant something else fair enough and apologies

Gender means masculinity and femininity, not whether you're a man or a woman @sapphosrock. Anyway, I see the other grownups have gone to bed, so time for me to turn in too. Enjoy your circular arguments and chinnyreckon stats.

OP your post is exactly the general tone on here. Most people here are supportive of transgender people but like you say not at the expense of women’s safety. We are all, I think, looking for a middle ground. Unfortunately our middle ground is a TRAs transphobia. There can be no middle ground between women and transwomen because to talk about them as separate entities is transphobic. Everything you’ve said in your post is exactly the kind of thing that has you labelled a bigoted TERF. It’s sad when you realise that your views which you’ve been thinking are supportive and empathetic and looking for ways to make things work for everyone are actually bigoted and deserving of violent misogynistic threats. I think a lot of people have no idea what’s actually going on and would be as shocked as you are at the level of abuse people get for asking questions or simply saying the situation is nuanced.

Lemonade, you seem to find it hard to understand that gender incongruance is not at all rare, especially in women!

Eh? I would say 99% of females are happy being women and 99% of males are happy being men

I am happy with my biology. I am not happy with my gender. I don’t like dresses, “pampering”, nails, eyebrows, grooming, make up, tan, heels. I don’t like that I am expected to take on the bulk of cleaning and caring for children. I don’t like that post or emails on joint accounts or bookings end up addressed to my husband when all dealings have been with me. I don’t like when I pay for meals my credit card is always handed to my husband as it is assumed the “dr” is male.

I don’t like that I am not expected to understand how things like gas accounts work. I don’t like that I, as a woman, negotiated part time at work relatively easily, yet when my husband tries to the same, or take time off to take kids to the dr’s or see a school play he is met by a puzzled look and “can’t your wife do it”.

I don’t like that the local laundrette did fucking vouchers and advertised them as a mothers day present. I don’t like that I get bought household appliances and soft furnishings as birthday and christmas gifts when my husband gets personal things. I don’t like that I am bought make up as people think i might just not know about nude palettes rather than choosing not to wear it.

I don’t like that my physical strength and sporting ability was always seen as a bad thing. That I might develop muscles that weren’t ladylike and boys would find it intimidating.

I don’t like that many people see “Mrs” as a higher achievement than “Dr”.

I could go on.. but generally gender can fuck off along with all its stereotypes...

I would further qualify that gender generally means stereotypes of what is masculine and feminine and/or roles thereof. But I too am going to bed now.

@RufustheRowlingReindeer

Oopsie

I may not have been clear, i agree with your post littlecabbage

I was confused for a minute there! I thought I remembered you as GC!

Many of the so-called trans people on Twitter are not even trans - they're fake anime avatar accounts created by men to bully and troll people. A lot of the really nasty abuse is also coming from "trans allies" who are nothing of the sort. Twitter isn't reflective of the real world and we shouldn't project this horrible behaviour onto all trans people - many of whom just want to live their lives in peace.

littlecabbage

Yeah i meant That i read it as her not trying to explain what it is like to be trans

Doh 😀

Anyway, I see the other grownups have gone to bed, so time for me to turn in too

Lol, more patronising as you have people disagreeing or challenging your viewpoint (children be quiet, seems all the grown ups have gone to bed!)
Makes you wonder who really are the grown ups on this thread.
As you said to me, address points made.
Which I'm going through and doing. Not just name calling and running off to bed if someone disagrees.

Nobody projects this behaviour onto all trans people.

I will be back tomorrow, at least briefly. But for tonight, that’s all that needs to be said.

Lemonade I don’t think it’s like people saying oh everyone’s gay, some people have a strong gender identity and some people don’t. I know I don’t have any gender identity at all, I just know I’m female because I’m female. I don’t wear make up or straighten hair or go to salons. I don’t like feminine clothing. I was always sporty in school. I’m proud to be a woman but I do wonder if they did change the definition of woman to ‘someone with a womanly gender identity’ what I personally would do then because that is something I don’t identify with at all and actually makes me feel quite