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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To find it really difficult to support trans women now

251 replies

Shockedandbefuddled · 12/06/2020 19:57

Some of the people who are threatening sexual violence towards JK Rowling are the people who want to access female spaces.

I really tried to be kind and support trans women. I know it’s not the general tone on here.

I was absolutely not willing to do it at the expense of women’s safety and dignity but felt there was a middle ground and the argument was too polarised.

I suggested my problems with self ID were the chances of predatory males using it to get in to female spaces. The twitter responses to JKR have demonstrated that some trans women will threaten another woman with sexual violence if they disagree with her views on womanhood.

Can these violent, hate-filled people not see what they are doing to there cause?

I apologise to all the decent trans people out there but some of the aggression has left me fearful that the loudest voices in the community are advocating sexual violence.

(Apologies for the repetition of violent / violence but ... )

OP posts:
MrsKypp · 12/06/2020 21:24

[quote Milicentbystander72]There is a really interesting article here. Well
Worth reading (if you can. I have no idea if it's behind a paywall or not)

www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-cancelling-of-jk-rowling-is-really-about[/quote]
Exactly - women's sports should only include people of the female sex NOT female gender.

Anybody can claim female gender! A heavyweight male could decide one day to say he is a women and enter women's weightlifting or whatever. It is beyond belief it's so ridiculous.

SEX is not the same as GENDER

What on earth makes people so ignorant that they conflate these two separate things?

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/06/2020 21:24

Sappho I agree with much of what you say about Radcliffe, I'd be interested to hear what he'd have to say.

Now imagine you're a trans person, how irritating would it be to have a non-trans person c splain what it means to be trans? She arrogantly dismisses their experiences as it didn't match her own.

I would like to take those two sentences and add: "Now imagine you're female, how irritating would it be to have a non-female person explain what it means to be female? To have their experiences arrogantly dismissed as they didn't match the non-female's?"

This happens to female people constantly from male people both those who do and don't identify as trans. Female people are told to shut up, to be kind, to educate themselves and to die in a grease fire when they argue back. Yet it's apparently wrong for females to speak out about their own experiences and try to get non-female people to hear them and understand.

hypernormal · 12/06/2020 21:25

I don't think it really comes down to supporting or not supporting transwomen, it comes down to not accepting abuse or gaslighting tactics from anybody. We all know how abusive men with fetishes have piggybacked onto the movement started by transsexuals with gender dysphoria who were trying to lead quiet lives. Women are being trolled on a mass scale by men who hate and envy women, so much so that they put on a dress and claim to be one. They spout hateful, misogynistic rhetoric then tell us we can't do anything about it because they're even more oppressed than we are. It needs to be called out. Whatever you think of him, someone like Piers Morgan might be able to get away with that, a woman never would. I wonder what's he's thinking about the JK Rowling row, I haven't seen him comment. He might be trying to figure out what to say still, as he's also generally anti-feminist.

SapphosRock · 12/06/2020 21:30

@Michelleoftheresistance exactly! I wish JKR had said as much rather than waffle on about trans being a craze and trans people being influenced by social media.

She must have known that would be a red rag to a bull and now people are focusing on that part rather than vulnerable women needing single sex provisions.

MrsKypp · 12/06/2020 21:37

What is the connection between Autism (incl former diagnosis of Aspergers) and transpeople?

There seem to be an awful lot of autistic transpeople.

20mum · 12/06/2020 21:38

"I didn't hit my wife, just slapped her" said ex mr.jkr. That came straight from the wife-beating stock lines, along with "I only pushed her", " she fell", "she's lying".......and so on and on.

OvaHere · 12/06/2020 21:43

@hypernormal

I don't think it really comes down to supporting or not supporting transwomen, it comes down to not accepting abuse or gaslighting tactics from anybody. We all know how abusive men with fetishes have piggybacked onto the movement started by transsexuals with gender dysphoria who were trying to lead quiet lives. Women are being trolled on a mass scale by men who hate and envy women, so much so that they put on a dress and claim to be one. They spout hateful, misogynistic rhetoric then tell us we can't do anything about it because they're even more oppressed than we are. It needs to be called out. Whatever you think of him, someone like Piers Morgan might be able to get away with that, a woman never would. I wonder what's he's thinking about the JK Rowling row, I haven't seen him comment. He might be trying to figure out what to say still, as he's also generally anti-feminist.
Piers has been quite vocally pro women albeit in his usual bombastic style.
Shockedandbefuddled · 12/06/2020 21:45

It is difficult but being trans or non-binary is fashionable and cool currently. This means shallow people will jump on the bandwagon.

I am delighted to say I put a really controversial title out here and there has not been one word of transphobia on the thread.

I am disheartened that I’m a TERF for believing in biology but genuinely support anybody who is living in their own identity as long as they do not threaten or abuse others.

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FantaOra · 12/06/2020 21:45

I'm not sure I even understand what "support" transwomen even means frankly.

I don't support the inclusion of males as women, they have never been and never will be, I have absolutely no need to pretend otherwise now as I never did in the past. I don't support sexually aggressive behavior of any kind, and definitely not the kind that requires boundary crossing the way trans does.

I do not support the selling of transition to children, I think it's appalling. So what am I supposed to be supporting?

I saw a survey a while ago about employment problems amongst people who have transitioned and I am not actually surprised in view of the easily observable levels of disturbing and disruptive behaviour demonstrated. Anyone behaving as badly will struggle with employment no matter what they are wearing.

So I suggest trans people act to support their own lives the way the majority do, by getting on with people.

OvaHere · 12/06/2020 21:47

@20mum

"I didn't hit my wife, just slapped her" said ex mr.jkr. That came straight from the wife-beating stock lines, along with "I only pushed her", " she fell", "she's lying".......and so on and on.
"well women do have eggshell skulls"

Jane Fae - transwoman and transactivist

LittleCabbage · 12/06/2020 21:48

[quote SapphosRock]@LittleCabbage here you go:

I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.[/quote]
That is not her trying to explain what it is like to be trans. That is her expressing concern for the huge increases in numbers of teenage girls wanting to transition to male.

Trying to understand why there has been such a huge increase is not transphobic. All she is doing is wondering if she too might have considered transitioning at that age, given that she had certain experiences and feelings that made her feel as though her body was somehow wrong.

RuffleCrow · 12/06/2020 21:51

Yanbu. Third space all the way.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 12/06/2020 21:51

I’ve seen some of my female friends retweeting those threats approvingly because JKR “deserves” it for being transphobic.

Those people would no longer be my friends. I try not to draw lines in the sand but arguing that a woman can ever "deserve" sexual violence is one that I can and will draw. I just don't want to be around anyone who thinks that's "justice".

FantaOra · 12/06/2020 21:55

JKR has a bog standard typical the world over understanding of trans and the current escalation of angry sexualised abuse. She's just a normal woman with the same observations as the vast majority of the population of the planet.

This is what is so enraging to those who have convinced themselves "identity" is a universal priority. It's simply made them into the intolerant, the closed minded and the abusive. Watching them from outside of their mania is astonishing.

Notmyname123 · 12/06/2020 21:56

The obsession with trans on this site is really quite unhealthy. The whole issue of Rowling has been hashed out so many times, with the same points being made over and over again. There are valid points to be made, and they have been, but this constant repetition verges on the brink of demonising people the vast majority of whom are utterly harmless.

FantaOra · 12/06/2020 22:03

Yeah, one of the most famous women in the world has been subjected to a global outpouring of violent abuse and death threats but women on mumsnet talking about it is unhealthy.

NonnyMouse1337 · 12/06/2020 22:04

as vile as the twitter abuse is, I'm actually more concerned about the politer, more professional lobbyists working unseen, doing backroom deals to dismantle women's rights and protections.

It's vital for women to remember this.
Are you asking yourself how did women's rights get to this state? A report from last year describes 'best practices' in trans activism. I've copied and pasted the relevant ones below.

ONLY ADULTS? GOOD PRACTICES IN LEGAL GENDER RECOGNITION FOR YOUTH
www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

1. Target youth politicians
Activists found it particularly helpful to get youth wings political parties on side, as main wings of political parties are often keen to listen and take the views of their younger counterparts seriously. In some cases, activists found it useful to make the point that youth politicians are the senior politicians of the future and that any changes that they are in favour of will inevitably be the policies of the future and are more likely to be on “the right side of history”.
Some campaigns found that allowing youth politicians to advocate for legal gender recognition to be extended to minors was compelling, perhaps because they are well placed to empathise with the situation of their peers.

2. De-medicalise the campaign
Many of the activists we interviewed mentioned de-medicalisation of gender recognition laws being important in their campaigns. De-medicalisation involves separating the legal gender recognition process from the public association with medical treatment or diagnoses. It was observed that the public often finds it difficult to separate these two concepts and this can result in apprehension about expanding access to legal gender recognition processes. Indeed, in certain countries, medical and legal processes are still interlinked.
Therefore, campaigns which seek to reform legal gender recognition laws have the task of separating these concepts through educational campaigns, so that legal gender recognition can be seen in the eyes of the public as distinct from gender confirmation treatments. This also means minors may be more likely to be able to access the processes, as one of the reasons often cited by opponents and critics in such countries for denying such access to minors is that young people should not have irreversible surgeries until they are of the age of maturity. Activists have sought to educate the public that legal gender recognition is a purely civil process.

5. Get ahead of the government agenda and the media story
In many of the NGO advocacy campaigns that we studied, there were clear benefits where NGOs managed to get ahead of the government and publish progressive legislative proposal before the government had time to develop their own. NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda and the ultimate proposal than if they intervene after the government has already started to develop its own proposal.
Where NGOs fail to intervene early, the ultimate gender recognition legislation may be far less progressive than activists would like.
This lesson applies equally to the media. There is a real risk that where advocates fail to intervene early, sensitizing the media and the public to trans rights in general and legal gender recognition in particular, persistent negative and pernicious narratives about the trans rights agenda may take hold in the public imagination which will negatively influence the legislative process and the prospects for success.

7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform
In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.

8. Avoid excessive press coverage and exposure
Another technique which has been used to great effect is the limitation of press coverage and exposure. In certain countries, like the UK, information on legal gender recognition reforms has been misinterpreted in the mainstream media, and opposition has arisen as a result. The effects of this can be dangerous: two out
of five transgender people experience hate crime each year in the UK, with young people the least likely to report incidents to the police. One in four trans people (26 per cent) directly experience transphobic abuse online each month. The UK Home Office have reported that hate crime in general has risen by 48 per cent between 2014 and 2017, with the number of recorded hate crimes and incidents based on sexual orientation rising by 70 percent over the same period.
Against this background, many believe that public campaigning has been detrimental to progress, as much of the general public is not well informed about trans issues, and therefore misinterpretation can arise.
In Ireland, activists have directly lobbied individual politicians and tried to keep press coverage to a minimum in order to avoid this issue. Similarly, in Norway, campaigners developed strong ties with youth politicians, who then presented to the senior members of their parties on the changes that were needed.
This technique was effective at persuading more senior politicians, as the changes were being suggested from within their own party rather than an external organisation. We also saw this technique in Denmark.

11. Be wary of compromise
A final lesson from the campaigns we studied, is that activists should be wary of compromise; compromise can be a double-edged sword. For example, in Ireland, compromise on legal gender recognition for young trans persons was critical to getting the legislation passed, but it might take years to revise the legislation to render it more favourable to trans youth.

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/06/2020 22:07

The conversation is in response to demonising female people trying to be heard as to why their single sex spaces and sex based rights should not be stripped from them by male people wanting to meet their own needs.

If female rights were not under threat, this forum would be averaging a couple of posts a week the way it was before all this started. Female people didn't initiate this, and no, I don't agree at all that they need to stop talking or standing up for themselves because you'd rather they didn't. And because, as you imply, females daring to talk about female needs and female rights is somehow by extension some kind of threat to others.

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/06/2020 22:08

I'd argue that the obsession with suppressing females from talking about their needs and rights and the threat to them is what is really unhealthy.

hypernormal · 12/06/2020 22:10

Piers has been quite vocally pro women albeit in his usual bombastic style.
He has on this particular issue, absolutely, but he is also known for complaining about feminists. I think he mainly complains about lib fems and their tactics, but he doesn't know enough about feminism to know they don't represent all feminists, so I'm wondering if he's trying to figure out what slant exactly to take on the JK Rowling thing.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 12/06/2020 22:10

And I'd add that the many articles demonizing Rowling for stating an opinion indicate a very unhealthy obsession with trans issues indeed. Better pop over to the Metro, Guardian etc and let them know, Notyourname.

Shockedandbefuddled · 12/06/2020 22:13

I agree the vast majority of trans people are harmless but cannot turn a blind eye to the vocal TRAs who are hellbent on threatening and intimidating women who do not agree with them.

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RufustheRowlingReindeer · 12/06/2020 22:16

That is not her trying to explain what it is like to be trans

That was certainly how i read it

Im very loathe to check the other comments JKR is supposed to have said as i have a feeling its a waste of my time

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 12/06/2020 22:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ as it quotes a deleted post.

SoberCurious · 12/06/2020 22:18

Totally with you 🙌🙌🙌

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