JKR rebuttals from cis women?

[Treats]

I’ve seen a few rebuttals of the JKR statement, but only from trans women or men (mostly with beards). I’m genuinely interested to learn about the ‘other side’ of the issue, but I want to hear it from people who have a female body. I want to hear from someone who’s actually menstruated why they’re comfortable with the term “people who menstruate” instead of “women”, for example.

My natural instinct is with JKR but I work with a lot of people who are horrified by what’s she’s said, and I genuinely want to question my beliefs in this area. But I don’t want a man to tell me what I should think when the question is about what makes women distinctive.

Has anyone seen anything?

There are actually a few! Listen to the calm voices or reason.

As my mum used to say ‘ an empty vessel makes the most noise’.

Do you see?

Putting it like that, I see what your problem is, although asking why they think transwomen are women is more like asking why they think that Rachel Dolezal should be allowed to identify as a black woman.

But if they've decided they disagree with what JK Rowling said in her statement, couldn't you ask them about specifically what they disagree with and why?

"Do you see?"

No. No equivalence.

Omg mockers. Lol

Transitioning advocacy organizations have been appropriating statistics from prostituted women for many years in an effort to win the oppression olympics for mediocre white males.

purplepizza

This thread may help you with links.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?pg=20

@Treats you might find a couple women who oppose JK’s stance here - it’s at least an opportunity for dialogue.

(But let me just say, they’re not exactly starting from an honest position, and their premise is incredibly weak)

Also as others have pointed out, there’s no equivalency in the examples you just mentioned. You really need to tighten up your thinking around this. Are you able to understand and articulate why those examples are not equivalent? Because if not, you need to tighten up your thinking and make your argument far more robust (said in the kindest way possible and not meaning to patronise).

And you will obviously have to somehow establish whether or not they’re actually female...

I think there’s several conversations going on at once. My post about the questions was to OldCrone who wanted to know why I can’t just ask the people around me for their views. I don’t think there’s an equivalency between those questions but the people I’m asking do, and that’s why I don’t ask them.

Kind of you to suggest I tighten up my thinking - that is exactly what I’m trying to do. My natural instinct is on the GC side - my experience and observations tell me that women’s oppression, discrimination and exploitation stem from their biology, not from gender stereotypes, and that’s why our political interests are not the same as trans women - but why do so many people I respect and admire think differently? To save me the awkwardness of having to reveal my hand and ask them outright, I’m keen to read the thoughts of women who disagree with me so that I can better understand.

There’s been a few good suggestions but I think it’s revealing that I haven’t found anything yet.

I really wasn’t trying to sound terrible - it’s just certain things need to be fully understood before one can even begin to argue one’s position effectively to others. It makes a lot more sense now that you’ve qualified that you don’t see them as equivalent but you were voicing the opinions of the opposing camp (as that distinction is so basic as to be central to this whole discussion).

So why do some people think differently?

Firstly in real life, conversations are sometimes between people who totally get the issues ( in my opinion anyway!) and people who I think are intolerant of transidentities, people who are confused or admit lack of knowledge , and then the people who I seriously disagree with

So of the real life conversations , what typically is different is :

People assume that the transwomen has had bottom surgery

People have only met in real life the more self effacing transpeople, the sort who don't want to use the ladies , ask if they are permitted to attend a women's only event , will always be open that they are a transwoman out of respect for others

People haven't fully thought through why sex based rights might be appropriate to maintain. Certainly when it's sports or rape crisis centres, people are often assuming that no transperson would impose in those spaces

The difficulty is that once people get an idea, it's harder for them to change their mind on things . And also we can't expect everyone to think the same way. We just need t9 be able to ensure that enough people , you , old, trans or not, Male and female , get it

Which is why there is only one way to solve this issue. And that is to deal with absolutes.

Men are men, and will always be biologically male. Women are women, and will always be biologically female.

Material reality.

I only just saw your post from this morning @Treats.

My post about the questions was to OldCrone who wanted to know why I can’t just ask the people around me for their views. I don’t think there’s an equivalency between those questions but the people I’m asking do, and that’s why I don’t ask them.

When I asked you that, I thought I knew the answer. I was asking you because I wanted you to think about why you couldn't discuss it. I thought it was because most people who say TWAW don't really believe it, so they can't explain it. Usually, or so I thought, they are just repeating what they've been told they should think, so haven't given it any thought, and don't want to think about it because then the absurdity of TWAW would become obvious to them. So you'll never get a rational answer to the question 'why are transwomen women?' because there isn't one.

But your reply has highlighted another problem. If they think that asking why they think transwomen are women is as bad as asking obviously homophobic or racist questions, it completely stops us from having a conversation about this. On another thread someone has said that our views are so 'abhorrent' that nobody will engage with us to explain why we are wrong.

We can't say 'why do you think transwomen are women?' because even to ask the question is transphobic, when everyone knows (even the people who say TWAW) that people can't change sex.

To be honest @OldCrone, I haven’t tried to discuss it - I’m assuming that people would think even a discussion would be bigoted and maybe I’d be surprised. But I’ve seen Facebook posts and tweets and I think......not.

You are absolutely right of course that discussion is therefore inhibited. I feel extremely torn between saying what I really think and staying part of the group. There will come a point where I can’t be inauthentic anymore but I don’t know when that will be.

This is why - to return to my original post - I’m so keen to examine their thinking. What bridges can we build between the two positions?

if you are faced with an accusation of transphobia ask how you are being discriminatory? You are not denying the existence or rights of trans people (if you are that is transphobic).

Poster @LiterallyProblematic posted this 7 minute YouTube on thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938003-Brilliant-short-vid-on-JKR-talking-to-TRA?msgid=97437021

As I commented there - asking questions in the hope of ever getting an actual answer to ‘what is queer theory”, “define ‘women’ without using sexist stenotypes”, etc is that we’ll never get an answer beyond “I’m right”