JKR rebuttals from cis women?

[Treats]

I’ve seen a few rebuttals of the JKR statement, but only from trans women or men (mostly with beards). I’m genuinely interested to learn about the ‘other side’ of the issue, but I want to hear it from people who have a female body. I want to hear from someone who’s actually menstruated why they’re comfortable with the term “people who menstruate” instead of “women”, for example.

My natural instinct is with JKR but I work with a lot of people who are horrified by what’s she’s said, and I genuinely want to question my beliefs in this area. But I don’t want a man to tell me what I should think when the question is about what makes women distinctive.

Has anyone seen anything?

I’m sorry about using ‘cis’ - it’s not a term I use myself and I understand how you all feel. I’m struggling with language because TWAW feels inauthentic to me, but is definitely the predominant discourse in my circle. So I feel very nervous about expressing my real thoughts. My first post was hedged about with “suppose x knew that this was me”, and I felt the need to have some deniability in there.

That’s why I’m looking for a thoughtful take from someone who shares my experience of living in a female body; I want to find some common ground with the people around me. Pompous men and people shrieking about Terfs aren’t helping.

I don't understand the expression 'people who menstruate' and think it's stupid. Only girls or women menstruate--and not all do for a variety of reasons. Too young, too old, hormones, health conditions, lacking in body fat%, or the woman was a biological male originally, etc.

I don't feel menstruation=a woman but it's a major part of it.

Goady fuckery 😃

OP ask the kids to change your title. 'Cis' is not actually allowed. Then you might get some responses.

I'm not going to be complicit in 'cis' bollocks

The open letter from the Clue app people to JKR might be what you're looking for op. They would definitely define themselves as cis!

But actually Treats, just trust your own judgement. This is a great article. It's a few years old now but so so relevant. www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/26/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

I'm an adult human female and I think both JKR and Daniel Radcliffe are in the wrong, yet both are coming from a good place.

I think it is arrogant of JKR to dismiss the experiences of trans people and suggest they are broadly influenced by social media. I find it odd she thinks her own feelings about her own gender are in any way relevant to the majority of trans people. She clearly struggles to comprehend others may have experiences that differ from her own. However she clearly is on the side of women and is coming from a good place.

Daniel Radcliffe mansplaining to women what a woman is was intensely irritating but he clearly has a lot of empathy with the struggles of trans women and is also coming from a good place.

I know you were squirrel, but the post before yours quoted me and then explained why cis is a fucking awful term like I needed to be told.

OP, this is what I meant. Cis will derail your thread. From what I can tell, the rebuttal would be that 'people who menstruate' is meant to be 'inclusive' language, so as to not leave out transmen and non binary females. The problem is, of course, that by reducing the women in question to the bodily function, regardless of inner identity or none, the 'inclusive' term actually has the effect of dehumanizing us because it focuses on the function, rather than the person.

JK Rowling did not deny the existence of women, she objected to the erasure of the word woman in connection to biological sex and limiting its use to self definitions which are framed by harmful stereotypes.

MrsApplepants: I am a woman, not a cis woman. Please don’t use that term, it’s offensive.

Totally agree. As is calling us menstruators.

My mom doesn’t menstruate. She is a woman.
My daughter doesn’t menstruate yet. She is a young woman.

Thank you for apologising , Treats, as you can imagine we get a lot of TRA's trying to goad us on this board.

Maybe request @MNHQ amend the title. As the thread may get reported for use of the c word.

For fucks sake, what is there to struggle with op? Woman is a term, a biological term through science, cis is made up bullshit.

Treats I was going to tell you off over "Cis" until I saw your apology. Just, never accept the wrong words for women. Women are women. We are not a subset of men.

The open letter from the Clue app people to JKR might be what you're looking for op. They would definitely define themselves as cis!

Yes, or the Bloody Good Period one. Or the Vagina Museum one.

My natural instinct is with JKR but I work with a lot of people who are horrified by what’s she’s said, and I genuinely want to question my beliefs in this area.

Why can't you ask the people who are horrified why they feel like that? These are the best people to ask. If they have good reasons for feeling that way they should be happy to explain to you and help you to understand.

For me it depends on context. If the topic is periods/period products then I personally don't take issue with the term 'person/people who menstruate' because not every woman menstruates and it doesn't make you less of a woman if you don't. I don't know how common it is for trans men to still have periods, from what I understand hormones usually stop them but not always? Idk.

I also don't mind being called cisgendered woman if the context of discussion is cis/trans women/people. I don't use the label for myself personally as I don't care much for them but if it's useful in a certain discussion then go for it?

I do find it a bit weird being called or labelled those things automatically and with no context though, as it does feel like the word 'woman' is being erased.

I don't know if any of that makes sense. Basically in context and done respectfully as part of a discussion I don't mind, but automatically, I don't like it.

Maybe we could leave aside the Cis bit now that the OP has conceded the point (ask to have the thread title changed, OP).

So you're worried about voicing your feelings/worries about an agenda that will sideline women's rights, because you'd prefer not to be shouted at and labelled anti-trans, when you're not. You have legitimate concerns, but none of the 'woke' crowd will let you have them, nor will they address your concerns, they'll just shout 'transwomen are women, you fucking TERF'.

Yeah, it's a problem.

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett just for a different perspective I am also from a pro Indy crowd and they are all angry about this and feel it is causing a divide between members at a vital moment. They don't agree with the GRA at all so I suppose hearing your perspective just confirms that split to me. Joanna Cherry however supports JKR.

I agree with JKR.

What a weird world that transwomen (men) have to be called women, yet women have to be called cis of menstruators.

Not all women menstruate, but all those who menstruate are women.

All women are women.

• cis or menstruators

I am a (cis, if that term is allowable) woman and I don't have a problem with the term 'people who menstruate'.

Not all women menstruate - I don't because I have had a hysterectomy.
Some transmen menstruate.

JKR is just one of many celebrities who enjoy airing their opinions on Twitter and she's perfectly entitled to do so without being attacked - however, I don't agree with her on this point.

I am a woman. This is a perfectly appropriate description for me as an adult human female. I do not want to be referred to as a person who menstruates (especially as I don’t since I had chemotherapy for breast cancer). I find the term cis to be offensive. My lived experience as a woman and the discrimination I and other women face is because of our biology not because of my “gender identity”. I am not subject to misogyny, sexual harassment, sexual assault because I “feel like a woman”. I am subject to it because I AM a woman. Removing my right to use these words to describe myself removes my ability to speak about my experience and the experience of other women and I find that profoundly offensive.

Its easy. If you have a XY chromosome pair instead of a XX you are a male. And no amount of wishful thinking, surgery, legislation or kicking and screaming at the world is going to change that.

I keep seeing ”I don’t menstruate so am I not a woman?” but it doesn’t work like that.

Women menstruate, if they don’t menstruate then there is a reason for that, either they are taking medication to prevent menstruation, have a medical problem, are pregnant or have gone through the menopause so no longer menstruate. An absence of menstruation is as much a part of being a woman as menstruation is.

If a man bleeds from his genitals it is a medical emergency.

The only woman I know that I’ve seen complaining about JKR was a huge fan of hers, and just seemed to think it was an unnecessary attack on the trans community, but I suspect she also has an eating disorder so probably has some empathy with people suffering from dysphoria and had always been a bit right on.

Women who menstruate and support the "people who menstruate" stance, will do so because...they can just call themselves women and everyone will accept it because they are women who may or may not menstruate, but ironically they think erasing the word woman is more inclusive when they themselves get to step above that label and disregard it because of biological fact. I mean you have to laugh really.

I mean they will say I am a woman, but people who mensruate is fine, but I don't use that label myself 🤦🏻‍♀️

Where as some of us say there's no need to say people who menstruate because women menstruate is fine, but we are the TERFS.

So abandoning the sentence by calling yourself something else is fine, but abandoning the sentence because you think it's bullshit not fine.

I'm in ireland, the National women's council of ireland Facebook page posted an article which I haven't read but which apparently tears apart JKRs position (written by an Irish self-describes cis woman) and the hashtag trans rights are human rights, which has about 300 comments of women raging about how JKRs arguments reduce being a woman to biological parts, that her argument is defunct, and that trans women were allies in repeal and need to be supported now.

If people are interested, they can check it out. Based on photos, a wide age range, about 90% anti-JK, a few dissenting voices being shot down as TERFS.