JKR rebuttals from cis women?

[Treats]

I’ve seen a few rebuttals of the JKR statement, but only from trans women or men (mostly with beards). I’m genuinely interested to learn about the ‘other side’ of the issue, but I want to hear it from people who have a female body. I want to hear from someone who’s actually menstruated why they’re comfortable with the term “people who menstruate” instead of “women”, for example.

My natural instinct is with JKR but I work with a lot of people who are horrified by what’s she’s said, and I genuinely want to question my beliefs in this area. But I don’t want a man to tell me what I should think when the question is about what makes women distinctive.

Has anyone seen anything?

Thanks lamanaubergine. She seems to be saying that she opposes gender stereotypes and therefore wants to open up what it means to be a woman.

I’m not finding my views challenged by that. I agree that gender stereotypes are damaging but I don’t think you solve that by expanding the definition of woman to include people who aren’t biologically female.

@worriedmama1980 thanks for pointing out that thread.

Apparently I continue to live in a highly intolerant country.

I mean women with female bodies. I appreciate that Mumsnet don’t really use cis as a term

I’m struggling with language because TWAW feels inauthentic to me

'Cis' is only necessary as a descriptor if you believe that TWAW. If you don't, there's no need for the extra word.

Your description of 'women with female bodies' suggests that women with male bodies also exist, which I appreciate seems to be an accepted view in your circle. However, I suspect that referring to transwomen as 'male-bodied women' would probably offend people in both camps.

Prufrock - it’s challenging. I deeply admire and respect them. Some have been active for years in equalities campaigns and have first-hand experience of appalling discrimination. It’s awkward for a privileged person like myself to say that I don’t agree with them on this issue. So I don’t. And which is why I’d really like to at least understand where they’re coming from.

I just checked the national women's council of Ireland FB page and came away depressed though there are a few women there talking sense they are being drowned out and anyone asking questions seems to be jumped on.

I’m surrounded by people who think TWAW and I would like to understand better where they’re coming from because I instinctively disagree.

The best people to explain where they're coming from are the people who are saying TWAW. If they won't do this, or they make it difficult for you to ask them, surely that tells you all you need to know. If they had a rational explanation, they would be able to state their position as JK Rowling has done and explain it in terms which are easy to understand for someone who doesn't know much about transgenderism.

A female body belongs to a woman, and all women have female bodies. Transwomen believe they feel like women, and that this thought makes them actually women (it doesn't), but they always have a male body (yes, even if they're in the minority who've had surgery; it's in the y chromosome).

Personally, as a female-bodied person, with a vagina, I don’t agree with JKR and I don’t know any woman in my own social circle who does. I find most arguments from people like myself are pulled to pieces and dismissed as being a handmaiden/internalised misogyny so ill make them briefly:

• my body/vagina/biology is not the defining point of my identity
• trans people are fully aware they are biologically different from people born that sex, and a minority of extreme voices suggesting otherwise doesn’t mean they all think like that
• the GRA stuff - it’s just bollocks. The problem is men, not trans women. Men - ones who dress up as women or otherwise - who want to abuse women in private spaces can do so right now. The GRA proposed changes do not seek to remove reasons for sex-based exemptions. They are simply about making it easier to get legal recognition for your gender. Situations involving trans women that could include genuine danger to women should be dealt with sensitively on a case by case basis (and yes, mistakes have certainly been made with the likes of Karen white, but a handful of perverts does not represent the whole trans community)
• as a survivor of male abuse and rape, I find it personally offensive when JKR and others use their trauma to suggest that all women who’ve experienced that feel a certain way. I don’t feel that way. She insinuates any and all trans people are a potential threat and their genitalia is a universal trigger. I don’t give a monkeys what’s in the pants of the person in the cubicle next to me. Trans women (and men) ALREADY use toilets and changing rooms and you probably don’t even notice.
• reporting on trans issues is inherently biased. When your starting point is that trans women are a problem, you’re not producing objective journalism. The NHS does not push under 16s to actively transition, they don’t do anything except prescribe puberty blockers up until then.
• I just fundamentally do not see trans people being treated in society as the gender they live as, as a threat to me or my rights

@Treats, they're coming from a well-intentioned place that many gender-critical women began from - wanting to be kind and inclusive and being persuaded by some actual facts (e.g. trans people suffer discrimination and violence) and some invented ones (e.g. suicide rates). They may not be fully aware of the level of violence and discrimination women still suffer; they're probably over-aware of the idea of 'privilege' and believe that 'cis women' are privileged because they have 'cis privilege', without considering what this privilege actually entails, i.e. 'having your sex be accurately identified within a system that discrimates against that sex'.

I used to completely buy into it. It genuinely did feel as though trans people were The Most Oppressed Ever and that the alternative was being on the side of people who moaned about 'political correctness gone mad' and 'snowflakes', the sort of people - by which I mean men - who tell rape jokes and grope their colleagues. I wanted to be a decent person, basically. I still do. But the more I've learned, researched, read, and seen, the more angry and incredulous I've become.

Sharing anything other than 100% agreement with the latest ideology - and what 'trans' means or is claimed to mean today is very different from what it meant 20 years ago - on social media, even a remark that is mostly about women's rights and goes out of its way to affirm support for trans people, leads to people either jumping in with hate or - the more insidious one - earnest people, often people who identify as trans or non-binary, explaining to you why you are wrong, using hyperbole and manipulation, and repositioning everything about being about trans lives - so that they are the expert and you, foolish woman, need to listen up. This kind of gaslighting (and, to give people the benefit of the doubt, I do think there's a lot of drinking-the-Koolaid rather than understanding what they're doing) works really well because it feels like it makes sense - particularly if it's an equality or justice issue. Paying attention to the words vulnerable groups use to tell their own stories is generally a good idea. If you're trying to be a decent human being, it's what you do. It can be really difficult to see that in this situation, it's not quite as straightforward because you as woman are also vulnerable and your words and experiences matter. And female socialisation means you've been encouraged to put others first.

It's not helped by the fact that the media is wildly biased and that it's the 'wrong' sort of news outlets (if you're a fuzzy liberal wanting-to-do-good type, anyway, which I am) - right-wing, tabloids - who tend to criticise the extremes of gender ideology. So all of these things add up to a sense that TWAW and everything that goes with it is the 'right' and 'decent' thing to believe and defend.

(Just realised this is the most personal thing I've ever shared here. But I thought it might be helpful to hear some of these points.)

@KatDubs261 that's interesting to hear, thanks. I also love Joanna Cherry. I'm not Indy so it took me a couple of beats to work out the 'I haven't listened to a word the T**F has said since 2014' comments.

And I happened to drive past the Anne Rowling clinic today and thought fuck this Twitter shit. If people can't see the real and concrete good JK is doing for women, children and Scots then it's their loss.

my body/vagina/biology is not the defining point of my identity

Okay. So why do trans people see their bodies as the defining point of their identities?

Trans people are fully aware they are biologically different from people born that sex, and a minority of extreme voices suggesting otherwise doesn’t mean they all think like that

So why did Stonewall adopt the slogan Transwomen Are Women, No Debate. Because as you acknowledge, trans people know that they are not members of the opposite sex. Transwomen, by your acknowledgement, know that they are male. Transwomen Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley et al support you in this. Why do Stonewall and Daniel Radcliffe insist otherwise?

the GRA stuff - it’s just bollocks

Yup, it's bollocks. Gender is sex stereotyping. And actually most women don't conform to sexual stereotypes so most women are transgender. Oh, and when you say gender what do you mean? Do you mean sex? But you've just admitted above that transpeople know they're not the sex they want to pretend to be.

I don’t give a monkeys what’s in the pants of the person in the cubicle next to me.

Maybe not. But that doesn't give you the right to give away the right to privacy and dignity for those women who do. Women who include religious and ethnic minorities for whom sharing space with men is forbidden. Maybe one day you'll have teenage daughters. Would you really like them, or your elderly mother, to encounter men in the loo? Oh, and can you tell me how women are supposed to tell the difference between the nice transwomen and the ones planning to jerk off to the sound of the woman in the next cubicle peeing or take photos in the swimming pool changing room or offer to help a teen girl insert a tampon?

The NHS does not push under 16s to actively transition, they don’t do anything except prescribe puberty blockers up until then

Several people who've worked for GIDS wouldn't agree with you. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/12/childrens-transgender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/
Puberty blockers can not only render a young woman sterile for the rest of her life but there's also evidence that they may inhibit intellectual development and cause physical problems down the line. Who's been telling you that puberty blockers aren't anything to worry about?

I just fundamentally do not see trans people being treated in society as the gender they live as, as a threat to me or my rights

And presumably that's because you don't play sport at a competitive level, and you're straight so you're not being harassed by men who say they are lesbians and lesbians can learn to love lady-dick, and you're young and haven't yet experienced the full force of sexism on your life and career prospects. I'd also suggest that you either don't understand or you don't appreciate how many women dedicated their lives to gaining the rights that you are so willing to throw away.

If you feel your arguments are being pulled to pieces then make better arguments that we can't dissect with ease. We struggle here on the feminism threads because so many pro-trans arguments are so flimsy and so based on belief rather than fact or science or reality that we can't understand why you'd believe such things. Think about what gender really means. Think about what sex really means. Think about why you are so willing to centre your life around men. Think about women's place in the world, around the world, not just in your social circle. Construct a better argument based on science and facts and come back and demolish us.

- my body/vagina/biology is not the defining point of my identity

But it is what makes you female, and therefore a woman (assuming you're an adult).

- the GRA stuff - it’s just bollocks. The problem is men, not trans women. Men - ones who dress up as women or otherwise - who want to abuse women in private spaces can do so right now.

Burglars will break into my house whether I lock it or not, so I might as well not bother.

The GRA proposed changes do not seek to remove reasons for sex-based exemptions. They are simply about making it easier to get legal recognition for your gender.

As I'm sure you know, exemptions in the EA2010 work differently depending on whether someone has a GRC or not. So if any man can declare himself a woman, with no gatekeeping, that is an end to any single sex provision for women.

Why does anyone need 'recognition for their gender'? Why not just live as you want to, but acknowledge that biological sex exists and can't be changed?

Situations involving trans women that could include genuine danger to women should be dealt with sensitively on a case by case basis (and yes, mistakes have certainly been made with the likes of Karen white, but a handful of perverts does not represent the whole trans community)

Do you think there are enough people who are suitably qualified and experienced and with enough information about every individual this might apply to, in every organisation, to make this workable? The people who made the Karen White decision were presumably qualified and had all the necessary information, and yet still mistakes were made. Do you view harm to women such as White's victims as acceptable collateral damage for pandering to men's feelings?

The NHS does not push under 16s to actively transition, they don’t do anything except prescribe puberty blockers up until then.

Almost every child who has been put on puberty blockers has then gone on to cross sex hormones. 60-80% of children with gender dysphoria who are not treated with puberty blockers desist once they have gone through puberty. Puberty blockers also have many unknown effects as well as affecting brain development and bone density; it is likely that they lower IQ and stop the normal increase in bone mass which occurs at puberty. Children who do not go through puberty are sterile as adults and don't experience normal sexual function. Blocking puberty in a physically healthy child is child abuse.

A number of doctors and psychiatrists at the Tavistock Clinic resigned because children were not being properly assessed before hormone treatment, and there was a feeling that some of them were probably gay and were being encouraged to transition by their homophobic parents.

- I just fundamentally do not see trans people being treated in society as the gender they live as, as a threat to me or my rights

How do you 'live as a gender'?

- my body/vagina/biology is not the defining point of my identity

Your body/vagina/biology influences:

• how others around you see you and treat you
• how much you're paid for the work you do
• your particular health risks
• the threats (and nature of them) to your safety

There is literally far less data gathered about your kind of body than the male kind of body, which is treated as the default human.

Your own feeling about or relationship towards what 'female' means doesn't change the impact of living in a female body in a world where sex is hierarchical.

I'm one of those you mention.
When first stumbling across the c word when new to the debates on here I initially had an I hate it reaction, but reading up from both sides (hate an echo chamber and like to get both sides so read both) it really doesn't bother me anymore.
I now see it as just a descriptor. ie not trans, doesn't mean I'm any less of a woman, accept people don't agree with me though.
Also saying people who menstruate takes nothing away from me - trans men may be biologically female but saying "you're female" seems mightily petty to me, they're allowed to be seen by law as men so I don't have a problem with making language more inclusive here.
I know I'm still a woman.

I mean women with female bodies

So, ‘women’, then?

It’s pure fiction that a man who decides to identify as a woman for a day purely for the purposes of abusing women would be granted documents saying he’s a woman under the new process. It doesn’t mean people can go around claiming to be whatever sex or gender they like unchallenged. If you want to talk about facts then start with not making that straw man argument the basis of your position.

I’ve read many of the threads on here, and blogs, studies and reports from both sides. I have yet to read anything that makes me reconsider my position, least of all on here

dodgeballchamp
Under the proposed changes to the GRA a person would have to sign a declaration that they are living in their desired gender and that they intend to continue to do so.There is no definition of how one lives as a gender, nor is there any way of verifying that their statement is true, since they are declaring only that they have a feeling at the point in time when they make the declaration. Obviously the feelings that a person has can never be proven to be genuine or not.

This is what they propose todo in Scotland. There is no gatekeeping.

www.gov.scot/publications/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-consultation-scottish-government/pages/6/

It really makes me sick, the idea of children on hormones. I mean what fucked up idealogoy is that?

I find it fascinating that after years of man being the default human, up to and including men debating if women are human, the transgenderists have made trans the default and all others are cis.
Then when you find out they mean people whose sex matches their societies sex role stereotypes, gender, you realize that the vast majority of women are not cis, nor are we trans.
We are simply left out, the way we have always been.
Hundreds of years of this degradation of women by men and they have the gall to call themselves civilized.

@worriedmama1980 Do you have a link to that article? I tried to find it but failed. I am Irish and am interested ...

“c*s” women.. what the hell!?

This is one of the few (left leaning) places where that offensive concept does not apply ... gross.

OP there are lots of entitled men and women putting Jo on blast (just check, I dunno, Twitter).

Why are you asking us to de-scramble their waffle?

Ps If people ID themselves as cs that is their choice, as unfathomable as I find it. But labelling others* that way without their consent is WRONG (and miss me with the bullshit analogy about yt / straight people).

and that trans women were allies in repeal and need to be supported now.

Yes well, there was self interest involved there, wasn't there?

I have a female body and am seen as a woman by society but do not see myself as a cis woman and would not call myself a woman if the choice is between cis and transwoman as I do not gender identify as woman having never wanted to be seen as female

Are you interested in my opinions and how would you classify me ?