JKR rebuttals from cis women?

[Treats]

I’ve seen a few rebuttals of the JKR statement, but only from trans women or men (mostly with beards). I’m genuinely interested to learn about the ‘other side’ of the issue, but I want to hear it from people who have a female body. I want to hear from someone who’s actually menstruated why they’re comfortable with the term “people who menstruate” instead of “women”, for example.

My natural instinct is with JKR but I work with a lot of people who are horrified by what’s she’s said, and I genuinely want to question my beliefs in this area. But I don’t want a man to tell me what I should think when the question is about what makes women distinctive.

Has anyone seen anything?

It's not just Mumsnet that doesn't use cis as a term, most people IRL don't use it either, despite what The Guardian or TRAs would have us believe.

@Treats have you been able to find any rebuttals by women? Any analyses of the type you described?

I’ve read and commented on so many threads the past couple of days that they have all been muddled into one big mass of information in my head, and I really don’t want to read back through this thread...but I’d like to ask a question, apologies if it’s already been asked and answered:

Have you read back through what JK has actually said in various twitter posts and/or in other arenas for further context? Have you read her essay? It’s not clear from your OP. You think you instinctively know where you stand. But if you’d read her comments and her essay I think you’d know for sure where you stand.

You need to be fully convinced of your own position, and talk with your friends and acquaintances on the basis of that. To do that you don’t need another woman’s voice, you only need your own. If you want to ensure that your position is robust, that you are fully informed and understand all the relevant issues, so that you can be fully confident of your own position, then you would be better off doing lots of reading and discussing here, doing plenty of your own further research, talk with us here again and then start discussing your views with people in your circle, if you want to.

I guess I’m trying to ask, because I think your intended aim has been lost a little due to justified anger about the unfortunate term you used to frame your question,

Please could you ask the question again. Using the term woman without any qualifiers. I want to understand a bit better what it actually is you’re asking for.

Thank you.

My problem is that the term Menstruarors was used initially to describe women and make them less.
JK addresses this.Then everyone piles in with 'I don't mentruate does this mean I'm not a woman' through to transmen insisting they menstruate(not sure how much as I thought testosterone knock that on the head)'
So some now want the term people who menstruate unaware they the original term was only a derogatory way to categorise natal women.

For the record, I refuse point-blank to get on board with terms such as 'women who menstruate'. To be defined purely by our menstrual status is unbelievably demeaning and offensive. ANY person (trans or otherwise) who chose to refer to me in such a way would be told to go fuck themselves.

I was born female but am now post menopause so am not a person who menstruates. How should I now describe myself? A person who formerly menstruated? Or as an older person who formerly menstruated am I so irrelevant that I should be irradicated altogether?

Treats Is was good to see your apology, and good to see you understand that CIS is offensive.

@MNHQ still needs to amend the offensive title. They've amended the Baroness Nicolson thread title.

They undermine their own stated policy on so-called offensive language and by that inaction Mumsnetters could start once again using language like "He" for men. "She" for women. And "TIM" and "TIF" (Trans identified males/females)

Sparkling I believe more and more transgenerist activists are going to put pressure on schools to ban lessons like biology over the next few years.

Transsexual people understand biology, and still acknowledge it; for this, the transgenderists label them scum (tru scum).

@Treats just for clarity, I meant could you ask your question again here on this thread. I wasn’t suggesting you start a whole new thread (unless you want to).

do you feel happy with trans women in all female spaces, including those in which women are vulnerable, such as women’s shelters / prisons for example? And do you feel comfortable with trans women competing in female sports (competitively, I mean) and counting towards closing the gender gap? Not saying that’s wrong by the way, it’s not an attack, just wondering as id like to understand if so.

My view on shelters and prisons is influenced by working in mental health units, which have been self ID for decades. When I have cared for transwomen it just hasn't been an issue. There has never been an incident, and I haven't heard of one nationally (although violence occurs so frequently in mh units I'd be unsurprised if there has been). The biggest issue is staff confusing pronouns in notes.

I've worked in female and male wards, and funnily enough I felt safer on the male ward. I wasn't assaulted once in 2 years, but was horrifically assaulted by a woman within 6 months of working on a women's ward. Statistics are clear that men are more violent, absolutely, but the risk in women's prisons is still very real, regardless of gender, and the challenge to the prison is to be able to work with and manage this risk appropriately.

By keeping males out of female prisons.

That doesn't match my experience as a patient. Many female patients hate mixed sex wards. They may work as places to put male patients who would be at high risk on the mens wards, but they are not therapeutic for women, and the rate of sexual assaults is just staggering.

Karen White assaulted vulnerable women prisoners, when they were placed in the women’s estate. They identified as transgender but had had no surgery - they were an intact male. Karen White

Gimmecaffeine
mental health units, which have been self ID for decades.

There has never been an incident, and I haven't heard of one nationally

Do you understand that self ID means any assault is recorded as being committed by the acquired sex? So no, you won't hear of assaults by men who id as a woman, or by trans women; they will be recorded as assaults by women. Even if the assault is rape, which in UK law is an offence committed with a penis.

How would you prevent predatory men from pretending they identify as women? Whose responsibility is it to make that decision, or to ensure safeguarding on each ward?

@Ninkanink - I'm looking for thoughtful and detailed rebuttals from JKR written by women. I'm not interested in what men think about it - it doesn't concern them - and I would expect transwomen to be opposed to her. But are there women out there who've thought deeply about this and considered their own experience and still think she's wrong?

I'm pretty sure of my own position on this. But because I find myself so completely at odds with some of the people around me - people I respect and admire hugely - I want to test my views against someone who thinks differently. As someone pointed out earlier, it seems bigoted to even ask people why they think as they do, so I feel fearful about getting into a dialogue IRL.

Ok thank you.

Sadly I don’t know of any such thoughtful, detailed analysis to point you towards.

Your best bet, and I appreciate you may have already done this and may not need or want to do so, but it’s the best I’ve got, is to read back through as many relevant discussion threads here in this topic as you can. Going back several years at least. That is probably the best you’re going to get: it will at least allow you to test your own thinking against the opposing camp and whatever arguments they can muster. However the thoughtful and detailed analysis with an emphasis on critical thought and intellectual honesty, and respect for scientific fact and material reality, tends to be entirely one sided.

I wish you well. It takes courage to ask the difficult questions, and talk about difficult truths. Perhaps those people whom you respect and admire for certain qualities in certain arenas simply aren’t the people you will be able to respect and admire when it comes to this and related issues.

@Gimmecaffeine

do you feel happy with trans women in all female spaces, including those in which women are vulnerable, such as women’s shelters / prisons for example? And do you feel comfortable with trans women competing in female sports (competitively, I mean) and counting towards closing the gender gap? Not saying that’s wrong by the way, it’s not an attack, just wondering as id like to understand if so.

My view on shelters and prisons is influenced by working in mental health units, which have been self ID for decades. When I have cared for transwomen it just hasn't been an issue. There has never been an incident, and I haven't heard of one nationally (although violence occurs so frequently in mh units I'd be unsurprised if there has been). The biggest issue is staff confusing pronouns in notes.

I've worked in female and male wards, and funnily enough I felt safer on the male ward. I wasn't assaulted once in 2 years, but was horrifically assaulted by a woman within 6 months of working on a women's ward. Statistics are clear that men are more violent, absolutely, but the risk in women's prisons is still very real, regardless of gender, and the challenge to the prison is to be able to work with and manage this risk appropriately.

I suggest your extraordinary experience may not be the best indicator of women's usual experiences in prisons.

As someone pointed out earlier, it seems bigoted to even ask people why they think as they do, so I feel fearful , getting into a dialogue IRL.

I don't know if that's me you're referring to here Treats, but if it is, that's not what I said. I said that you would be accused of being a bigot by the people who don't want to answer your questions, not that you are a bigot for asking them.

Ask yourself why anyone would refuse to answer civilised questions which someone else is asking in order to understand more about an issue. If you ask people here why they don't believe TWAW, once we have established that you're genuinely asking for information and want to learn, we'll explain in detail and answer all your questions. What does a refusal to answer reasonable questions tell you about someone's position? Especially if they call you a bigot simply for asking.

@OldCrone - I didn’t mean to misrepresent anything you said - I was thinking about the situation I’m in. It’s difficult to explain without revealing too much of myself. I’m not looking for reasons why people here are GC - I agree with you all - but I feel respect for everyone around me who thinks differently and I’m trying to understand why they do.

People seem to think it’s easy to just ask people to justify themselves. It’s really not. Hence the discreet enquiries on an anonymous Internet forum.

I feel respect for everyone around me who thinks differently and I’m trying to understand why they do.

But they'll think you're a bigot if you ask them about what they think? Or have I misunderstood?

I totally understand why you feel the need to ask here. But I feel you're not quite joining the dots. If people think you're a bigot for asking polite questions about their beliefs, what does that tell you about those people and their beliefs?

The people who are best placed to explain to you about their beliefs are the people who hold those beliefs. Why won't they do that? (I know the answer to that, and I think you do too.)

Hi all, long time lurker first time poster. I've been following this forum for ages and I swear, I'm nearly more riled up about this than I was about the Repeal referendum two years ago (I'm Irish). I just outed myself as GC on FB (I have friends on there from work who are lovely but very young and woke, so I am glad of the lockdown). Anyway got embroiled in an argument - my FB sparring partner is someone who is a staunch feminist, and I swear, I've "cyber" known her for 13 years and we have never disagreed on anything. But this...so her point was JK Rowling has refused to be educated on this and all the nice trans groups have tried to sit down with her and she refused. I pointed out the tone of the posts, how JK has said herself she has researched the topic, and I see no reason why she should sit down with people who rejoice when a rape crisis centre is defunded. her response "rowling keeps on causing hurt to trans people and if the govt defunded the rape crisis centre it's not trans people fault". So I responded, fair point, and it was a disgrace, but to mount a campaign along the basis that raped women are bigots for not being relaxed around d*s in a rape crisis centre was appalling. Cue the whole "trans people have a life expectancy of their early thirties". I went back and said there is widely disparate info on this, and it is very very triggering and IMO dangerous to constantly refer to young people who suffer from body dysmorphia as pretty darn sure to take their own life. Not very encouraging. She responded saying it's not just suicide, it's murder and overdoses, and it's triggering to be in a group where you are told you are much more likely to have that happen. So... can someone please direct me to factual links? And while we are at it how many women die from male violence?

I suggest your extraordinary experience may not be the best indicator of women's usual experiences in prisons.

In mental health wards female staff tend to share as a view that it is easier to work (as a woman) with men. You can tend to build a stronger therapeutic relationship with a woman but there is more violence against female staff.

Do you understand that self ID means any assault is recorded as being committed by the acquired sex?

Yes.

How would you prevent predatory men from pretending they identify as women? Whose responsibility is it to make that decision, or to ensure safeguarding on each ward?

If there is reason to believe that a man is instrumentally presenting as a transwoman to access women a safeguarding alert would be raised and a protection plan put in place. This might be discharge home or 1 or 2 staff observing 24/7. Safeguarding alerts on MH wards for violence or sexually inappropriate behaviour are not rare events, but I have not seen one raised for a trans person or been aware of a need for safeguarding in another service.

I found her original beef a bit unnecessary mainly because she was being critical of something that was trying to be inclusive of trams men, whom I feel a bit sorry for. There's not a peep about how trans men are men and medical descriptions haven't all been changed to "people who suffer from prostate cancer". It is weirdly depressing to have maternity units talk about people who have given birth and pregnant people, but I don't even know why it makes me sad. Maybe because becoming a mother is such a huge thing, I don't understand why anyone would have an issue with the word describing the person who gave birth. Then again, surrogates probably don't want to be described as mothers, and one only really becomes a mother over time.
In some ways I don't know why it all matters that much, but I also didn't see anything offensive in any of JKR's subsequent updates, and absolutely none of the abuse is justified. And the Sun is shocking. Still waiting for Janice Turner to win the argument really.

I feel as though asking “So, can you explain why you think trans women are women?” would be akin to asking “So, can you explain why you think black people are as intelligent as white people?” or “So can you explain why you think marriage between two men is equal to marriage between a man and a woman?” Do you see?

Cue the whole "trans people have a life expectancy of their early thirties".

The people this statistic is referring to is transsexuals in South America, many of whom work as prostitutes.

2,115 murders of transgender people were reported worldwide between January 2008 and April 2016. Of these, 78 per cent occurred in Central and South America.

According to a study by the Association of Transvestites, Transsexuals and Transgender people of Argentina, in 2013 95 per cent of transgender people had performed sex work at some time in their lives.

www.equaltimes.org/latin-america-the-most-deadly?lang=en

This is entirely irrelevant to what is happening in the UK, whether that be children who are being told that if they play with the 'wrong' toys they are 'really' the opposite sex, or heterosexual middle-aged men who transition (often as the result of a sexual fetish) after spending years married to women and fathering children. These men can't possibly have 'a life expectancy of their early thirties' since they typically don't even transition until after they're 40 (sometimes much later).

There is a trans woman on Twitter whose views I found refreshing Nd normal. I think Twitter makes it all seem worse than it is? Or maybe I just hope.
Take a look at Laura, adult human transsexual (@lpriccio): twitter.com/lpriccio?s=09