Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

[BabyLlamaZen]

I have sympathy towards JKR whilst also having sympathy towards trans people and I am honestly SO CONFUSED. There are so many elements to this. I'm not even sure what the ideal end result is?

Idea 1. You shouldn't have to transition. Having studied gender identity and gender dysphoria, I both agree that it is extremely real for a lot of trans people to feel like they are in the wrong body whilst also agreeing that this feeling is also a product of our terrible categorical society. I HATE gender stereotypes and sadly, trans people I know have come from extremely sterotypical backgrounds where the opposite gender makes sense to them. If you go into this entire argument, then it generally concludes with the view that very few if any people should be making the full transition. (And those who do are truly unique cases - again if this should ever happen is debatable). This means that boys and girls should be able to dress however they like whilst STAYING boys and girls. Therefore boys can dress like girls with long hair and nails and nail varnish, love babies, be 'sensitive'. Girls can dress like boys with short hair, trousers, have 'masculine traits'. Anyone can do whatever they like but men keep their penis whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves men. Women keeps their vaginas whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves women.

However, this then totally contradicts point 2. 😫

Idea 2. A trans woman who has not completely transitioned cannot use a woman's bathroom/safe space

So you must use the bathroom that matches your genitals, no matter how you act and dress. This is assuming that you NEVER transition and it is impossible to be in the wrong body.

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

So in men's toilets people look like men and women.
In women's toilets people look like women and men.

We can't see anyone's genitals so we dont know the truth. Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet? Especially if they really do feel like women! Because the magic therapy (if it works) hasn't worked yet?

So are we really just confining people to their genitals after all?

Then we also have Idea 3. Society sucks. We cannot change it in time. We cannot completely dress and act like the opposite sex whilst staying the same sex so just let people be happy and transition? ohh but how to do this, doesn't work for Idea 2?

Help.
And this is why it's easier to just say TWAW and carry on with your own life.

Read JKrowling’s essay

Several of these threads have been started in the last couple of days. You aren't special.

Work it out for yourself, mate

@HermioneWeasley oh I did!

And she made the point that transitioning is frequently not the right thing to do whilst also stating if someone has not fully transitioned than they should not be allowed in a women's space. So should transition even happen? If yes or no, what to do in the meantime?

Oh god is this yet another of those 'wokey drops by to school the meanie wimminz' posts?

Why are some of the responses to angry? I was really hoping for an intelligent discussion. I thought the feminism board was quite open about this?

even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside

Does he? With a penis? A penis is a male sex organ.

We need, as a society, to do some work advocating for 'third space' gender-neutral loos, changing rooms etc AS WELL AS male/female spaces.

And double down on work to challenge men to accept gender non-conforming males and stop being violent to these males and all females. This needs to be led by men.

@teawamutu I would actually be called a terf by some people so if anything I thought you'd want to discuss it.

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

Exactly like a woman, you say? I take exception to that.

Very few transwomen “pass” as female. It’s the height, the build, the voice, the mannerisms.

I wouldn’t even argue that this “boy” has to use the men’s toilets. But he shouldn’t be in the womens’.

@7ofNine yes but you know what I mean, you can't always tell can you? If your child dressed as the opposite sex would they still go in their same sex bathroom? If so, cool! I'm just trying to get ideas 😂

I'm not sure why your point 1 and 2 contradict each other. We seperate certain facilities based on sex, not clothing or make up preferences.

Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet?

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

Hope this helps.

@MujeresLibres ok someone is talking! I agree with gender neutral loos.

A man dressed as a woman is still a man especially if he has a penis.

Therefore he needs to use the males bathroom

Tbh, OP, it's not about genitalia.

It's about sex, regardless of cosmetic alteration. Round these parts we try to be very consistent about putting women and girls first, however they identify or feel about being female. We get called names for it, and I so understand that the influx of newbies here are keen to help trans people, and I totally get and respect that.

But feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women and girls, which means our concerns are focused on the rights, protection and dignity of female people. There are certain situations where other rights issues will intersect, like race or disability, but the purpose of feminism is not to right all the injustices of everyone everywhere.

So, wrt to male trans people, as much as any individual is free to fight for a specific right for anyone, the difficulties that male trans person might face are not difficulties feminists must deal with. Female trans people get discussed here a lot, because they are women, and if a female person feels compelled to escape being a woman, it's important to ask why.

I get that this is a tough thing for male trans people to hear, and I know there are people who post here and don't understand the focus, but women and girls deserve to be prioritized in their own rights movement.

There are quite a few discussion on going about why there is friction with women's rights.

If your interested I suggest you spend time reading them and not be afraid to post on an ongoing thread about the relevant topic.

The issue is that as you will see this board is now being continuously accessed with goady threads with the intent of collecting screen grabs of nasty feminists.

With due respect it's not our place to 'educate', you are more than welcome to join the conversation.

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

How would a male who dresses in a feminine way resemble a female person without radical surgery, hormones, voice coaching etc. If a man can dress however he wants and keep his male genitalia why would he feel the need to use womens toilets anyway ?

@BlueBooby

I'm not sure why your point 1 and 2 contradict each other. We seperate certain facilities based on sex, not clothing or make up preferences.

This.

Unless the presumption is that clothes dictate provision, which they do not.

My child has long hair down to the waist, is very fine featured, hates football, loves reading, dancing, and social board games, hates clothes of all kinds!

That child has a penis, and uses male loos.
He has had lots of smaller children at school ask whether he's a boy or a girl (even though his name is a giveaway, think Steve or Dave lol)- he just points out that anyone can have long hair, boys don't have to like football, boys can love books, anyone can enjoy dancing it's good for you etc etc.

@BaronessFloralBunting as much as I understand your points, what are your thoughts about someone who has fully transitioned?

I suppose I'm not sure about transitioning which you can say makes me unkind and a hypocrite because then if they dont transition, they're in a limbo space!

Gender neutral spaces I suppose?

@7ofNine awesome. I hope more people are like him!

OK I'll bite. Responses are 'angry' because there are lots of threads on this on Mumsnet and lots of literature about it more generally on the Internet. There are also threads on here full of resources.

To answer your question briefly, everyone should be allowed to dress the way they want without judgment and especially without having to chop bits off their bodies or sew bits onto their bodies.

Even if you chop bits off your body or sew bits onto your body you haven't changed sex anymore than people who sew wings onto their body can suddenly fly or a woman who has horns implanted into her forehead and scales tattooed on her face is a dragon: www.vice.com/en_us/article/kz5bxa/eva-tiamat-medusa-dragon-lady-transgender

And if you haven't chopped anything off or sewn anything on you definitely shouldn't be entering women's single-sex spaces anymore than a fox with its teeth and claws intact should be allowed into a henhouse. Those worried about being attacked in men's single-sex spaces can fight for third spaces and we'll gladly join that fight. But don't come and take ours.