Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

[BabyLlamaZen]

I have sympathy towards JKR whilst also having sympathy towards trans people and I am honestly SO CONFUSED. There are so many elements to this. I'm not even sure what the ideal end result is?

Idea 1. You shouldn't have to transition. Having studied gender identity and gender dysphoria, I both agree that it is extremely real for a lot of trans people to feel like they are in the wrong body whilst also agreeing that this feeling is also a product of our terrible categorical society. I HATE gender stereotypes and sadly, trans people I know have come from extremely sterotypical backgrounds where the opposite gender makes sense to them. If you go into this entire argument, then it generally concludes with the view that very few if any people should be making the full transition. (And those who do are truly unique cases - again if this should ever happen is debatable). This means that boys and girls should be able to dress however they like whilst STAYING boys and girls. Therefore boys can dress like girls with long hair and nails and nail varnish, love babies, be 'sensitive'. Girls can dress like boys with short hair, trousers, have 'masculine traits'. Anyone can do whatever they like but men keep their penis whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves men. Women keeps their vaginas whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves women.

However, this then totally contradicts point 2. 😫

Idea 2. A trans woman who has not completely transitioned cannot use a woman's bathroom/safe space

So you must use the bathroom that matches your genitals, no matter how you act and dress. This is assuming that you NEVER transition and it is impossible to be in the wrong body.

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

So in men's toilets people look like men and women.
In women's toilets people look like women and men.

We can't see anyone's genitals so we dont know the truth. Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet? Especially if they really do feel like women! Because the magic therapy (if it works) hasn't worked yet?

So are we really just confining people to their genitals after all?

Then we also have Idea 3. Society sucks. We cannot change it in time. We cannot completely dress and act like the opposite sex whilst staying the same sex so just let people be happy and transition? ohh but how to do this, doesn't work for Idea 2?

Help.
And this is why it's easier to just say TWAW and carry on with your own life.

It's not my job as a woman to share my woman only space to validate the feelings of a man

I'm jumping in to respond to this, because this is how I feel, really very strongly. I don't care if this lovely TW is the nicest sweetest person ever, wouldn't hurt a fly etc. etc. It isn't up to me to accept this male in my single sex space and I shouldn't have to apologise for that. I don't care one jot if the TW has malicious intent or not, the point is simple, it is a single sex space and they are the opposite sex, so get out. I am far beyond caring if that makes me look "unkind".

I'd say it would be good to have a trans person discuss it here, but may not be great for their mental health with some of the posters here.

There has been quite a few. Either they agree with the GC view entirely or they get chased off.

Even Debbie Hayton was told not to post here. (As it might prevent Debbie’s wife from doing so).

I tell you what isn't good for my mental health OP, reading all the many mysoginistic replies to JK telling her to 'go suck my lady dick'.

A Twitter user @meeshyville has compiled just some of the lowlights.

Misogynistic dammit.

Sorry, not slept well because I find this pile on JK deeply disturbing, but sadly unsurprising.

As jellyfish and Zorro say

Spot on, Z0rr0

"But the question is, why isn't Alex expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a man? A man with a beard who likes having long hair and wearing female clothing and using make up?"

This^

"Why does Alex feel like gender is a binary thing (which makes the trans movement so regressive) and that because he likes these things that must mean he's a woman?"

This^

"The answer is to educate men to be more accepting of difference in males."

And this^

nicenames you make good points. I just don’t think there’s going to be an answer that suits everyone.

If counselling works for this then great, but so far it hasn’t. It’s been suggested by some that dialectical behaviour therapy or other modern therapies might be useful but so far I don’t think that’s been explored.

Some are more dysphoric to secondary sex characteristics than primary, and that’s true for trans men as well as trans women.

I think describing gender (or sex) dysphoria as ‘hurt feelings’ is trivialising something more serious.

But yes, I agree there is potentially a conflict in some cases between a trans woman’s right to not have her mental health further damaged, and the right of a woman who has been traumatised by men not to have her mental health worsened by a male body being in some spaces.

The law has tried to recognise this. Hence the exemptions in the GRA. It’s not going to suit every single person in every single situation unfortunately.

Also, why'd you need point 2? Point 1 is fine and complete.

What toilets are you suggesting for a woman who wears jeans, trainers, t-shirts, has short hair, no make up?

Are you suggesting she should use the gents because she's wearing men's clothes? Does that mean she's presenting as a man? I assume you think she gets to carry on using the women's bathrooms. She's a woman, no matter what she wears, no one calls that into question.

Why does it change when a man wears a skirt and lipstick?

Toilets aren't divided according to what clothes you wear. What relevance does that have?

Alex clarifies absolutely everything, the living embodiment of a perfectly reasonable and sustainable position.

@BabyLlamaZen Try this analogy excelpope.wordpress.com/2020/06/12/tales-for-an-accelerated-culture-war/

I think a good place to start might be to read back through all the many, many very detailed threads on this topic which do an excellent job of setting out the gender critical, pro-women’s rights position. This has been discussed in depth here for years now.

All the resources are here for you to educate yourself.

I agree there is potentially a conflict in some cases between a trans woman’s right to not have her mental health further damaged, and the right of a woman who has been traumatised by men not to have her mental health worsened by a male body being in some spaces

Women do not have to have suffered past trauma in order to object. I detest this idea that we have to have a "reasonable excuse" to not want males in our single sex spaces. Males are not welcome, full stop. That the male in question might be wearing a skirt or lipstick doesn't change anything.

Yes. Absolutely. Women do NOT have to have suffered sexual abuse, predatory behaviour, violence, rape or in fact any harm at all, in order to be entitled to protection from potentially suffering those things. It is enough to say no, I am not okay with this. I do not consent. My daughters do not consent. My sisters, my mother, my friends, women I don’t know and will never meet, do not consent. NO.

Women do not want men in their spaces.

The vast majority of men do not want to be in women’s spaces.

That does not take away from the rights of transgender individuals. They have every right to live peacefully without fear from harm. But they cannot gain that end by appropriating spaces that are sex-segregated in order to protect women’s dignity, privacy and safety.

There is always tension when it comes to rights and protections. It is a balancing act.

@BabyLlamaZen

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that. Which goes back to age old argument of how to tackle that. If therapy doesn't work.. then there is the argument of what does and maybe that's how they'll always feel?

Coming back to this and echoing a lot of other women on here, I don't care what transwomen believe they are. They are not women, they cannot use women only spaces. And if they have even an ounce of compassion for anybody but themselves, they would examine their behaviour and realise the stress and uncomfort they are causing the very people those spaces belong to.

Also, not sure why you stopped at idea 1. Transwomen rarely have surgery anyway, so isn't the best solution to make it acceptable people can wear whatever they like?

It makes no difference what the individual thinks or feels or wishes to be true.

It does not make it true. It does not negate biological fact, nor material reality.

It does not matter how they dress, what they look like, whether they have taken hormones, had surgery (very few do, in fact) or whatever else the case may be.

Sex matters. Biology matters.

@BabyLlamaZen

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that. Which goes back to age old argument of how to tackle that. If therapy doesn't work.. then there is the argument of what does and maybe that's how they'll always feel?

Your post is saying but what if the man does not accept the women saying no to him? Surely in those circumstances the women should be forced to say yes?

A man feeling terribly sad because women don't share his view of himself, isn't women's problem to solve.

"Why do we even have two separate toilets?" that is the question you should have concentrated on in the first place. Look up world wide campaigns to get toilets for women in poorer countries and why they are going to that much trouble.

Lots of people have unsuccessful therapy. It is sad for them. That does not mean everyone else has to go along with their delusions or compensate for their problems.

I won't be sending diet tips to my anorexic aunt even though that would validate her belief.

I won't be supporting my friend's ex in getting out of prison even though he truly truly believes she deserved everything he did to her and it is really her fault not his.

That man who claims he drives better after a couple of pints? I'm not getting into a car with him. I might even hide his keys. He truly believes he's a better driver after a drink.

I briefly had a boyfriend who explained he really truly couldn't get it up unless I wore very high heels. He thought that meant I should wear them. I thought it meant I needed to dump him. Which I did. Not my problem to solve. He thought I was a right mean bitch. He fully expected me to be his support human and could not comprehend my meanness in refusing. He wanted me to be kind.

I detest this idea that we have to have a "reasonable excuse" to not want males in our single sex spaces. Males are not welcome, full stop.

This. Stop expecting women to help make men feel better by pretending they are women. They can ask for third spaces. If that's not good enough then what you are saying is that there is a set of men who want access to women's spaces no matter how much that upsets women. That's not the trait of a nice group of men, and they definitely should be kept away from women and girls.

This forum is moving really really quickly right now!

I read this yesterday, and I'm just adding my thoughts to the "cycle lane" analogy, because it has been picked up and run with.

TRAs will say it's not fair to create a separate space just for trans people, it means they need to "out themselves" and it's "othering" (this is aside from the fact it's not validating for transpeople, or if you're AGP it's not gratifying).

So just to let OP know this third space suggestion is one that is mixed sex, so for transmen, transwomen and men, women who are happy to use mixed sex.

A cycle lane is just for bikes. Not pedestrians or cars. The "third space" suggestion, to protect female only spaces for those who need them and still provide spaces for trans people, is for everyone not only for trans people.
That way there's noone "being outed" but there's still respect for the women-only spaces.

I think campaigning for a 3rd space that is gender neutral and hopefully inclusive of other non-sex/gender related issues would be much more productive than this toxic debate.

I used to look like a boy and people used to tell me where the boys bathrooms were. I am happy to use gender neutral toilets. However, that doesn’t mean that all women feel this way - particularly if they have had bad past experiences. I also think toilet provision is not fair to many groups including women, but also people with children in prams, health problems (including mental health issues like anxiety). Having more of these separate-room toilets would be positive.

Both natal and trans women are disadvantaged compared to men. In such situations, you don’t usually take things away from a disadvantaged group, but make extra space using the space/resources of the advantaged group? I would argue they should make men’s sport open to any sex and also create mixed/gender-neutral/low testosterone sports categories, but keep women’s sport for biological women.

the 3rd set of toilets will be less outing the more natal women use them (as some are happy to do - me included). It will alleviate the pressure on women’s toilets (often have longer queues than men).

The toilets issue is the least easy to police. I’m more concerned about sports/prisons/refuges. Those are places where a male body really really counts.

I agree. I’m very concerned about women’s / girls safety in refuges and prisons, in school / sports centre showers and changing rooms.

And in women’s sport.

And the frail and vulnerable elderly who are not allowed to have a same sex carer in a nursing home / hospital.

And the Implications for women’s health care, equal pay etc when they no longer exist as a category.

Many women will no longer go for breast / cervical screening if staff might be XY people and they are not allowed to object. Some of these women will die because of late diagnosis of cancer.

It’s not all about toilets . Not that they are not important but it’s often used as a way of implying that women’s concerns are trivial.

As always. Anything that concerns women is just silly of course. Silly and bigoted. And over reacting, did I mention that?

Yes, toilets is the least problematic and easiest to sort out.
(I will just drop in the huge explosion in spy cam porn however).

A "third space" solution works in prisons though, I believe in the UK they created a separate wing in the men's prison for men with fake tits. Refuges could create a similar set up, eg a separate area. Transmen are currently housed with the women and so far no problems with that.

Sports is rather more complicated to unravel, I strongly feel R MCk's and Laurel Hubbard's results should be recorded on a separate list, so that the woman who won (currently listed as second place) still won, and the trans person also won but in a separate category.

Although it's not ideal R MCk raced with the women, I guess in lieu of the IOC changing the rules again, the best option is to keep separate records.

The problem with (elite) sports is that what we see as the "men's" team is actually mixed sex anyway, so that's the "third space/mixed space" idea right there. Women have the right to attempt to qualify for the main team or race, (eg women are free to try joining the Tour de France or Manchester United) It's just that no women ever make it.

Team sports is more complicated (in terms of trans inclusion), but my priority would be ringfencing women's teams for women only, transmen on performance enhancing drugs not permitted in women's sport either, and let trans activists work out how trans people can compete in team sports.

even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

He doesn't, though. You know this, I know this, everyone reading knows this, so why are we expected to pretend that we don't?

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that.
Which goes back to age old argument of how to tackle that. If therapy doesn't work.. then there is the argument of what does and maybe that's how they'll always feel?

What about how women feel? Why is that deemed less important?

Women's spaces do not exist to provide emotional validation. That is not what they are for. If not being allowed to use women's spaces makes some men unhappy, and allowing those men to use women's spaces would make many or most of the women unhappy, then why does it seem reasonable to you that the wishes of the (very few) men should be given priority over the wishes of the (very many) women? Ask yourself why you're framing this in a way that assumes that the feelings of the transwoman are more important than the feelings or needs of anyone and everyone else.