Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

[BabyLlamaZen]

I have sympathy towards JKR whilst also having sympathy towards trans people and I am honestly SO CONFUSED. There are so many elements to this. I'm not even sure what the ideal end result is?

Idea 1. You shouldn't have to transition. Having studied gender identity and gender dysphoria, I both agree that it is extremely real for a lot of trans people to feel like they are in the wrong body whilst also agreeing that this feeling is also a product of our terrible categorical society. I HATE gender stereotypes and sadly, trans people I know have come from extremely sterotypical backgrounds where the opposite gender makes sense to them. If you go into this entire argument, then it generally concludes with the view that very few if any people should be making the full transition. (And those who do are truly unique cases - again if this should ever happen is debatable). This means that boys and girls should be able to dress however they like whilst STAYING boys and girls. Therefore boys can dress like girls with long hair and nails and nail varnish, love babies, be 'sensitive'. Girls can dress like boys with short hair, trousers, have 'masculine traits'. Anyone can do whatever they like but men keep their penis whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves men. Women keeps their vaginas whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves women.

However, this then totally contradicts point 2. 😫

Idea 2. A trans woman who has not completely transitioned cannot use a woman's bathroom/safe space

So you must use the bathroom that matches your genitals, no matter how you act and dress. This is assuming that you NEVER transition and it is impossible to be in the wrong body.

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

So in men's toilets people look like men and women.
In women's toilets people look like women and men.

We can't see anyone's genitals so we dont know the truth. Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet? Especially if they really do feel like women! Because the magic therapy (if it works) hasn't worked yet?

So are we really just confining people to their genitals after all?

Then we also have Idea 3. Society sucks. We cannot change it in time. We cannot completely dress and act like the opposite sex whilst staying the same sex so just let people be happy and transition? ohh but how to do this, doesn't work for Idea 2?

Help.
And this is why it's easier to just say TWAW and carry on with your own life.

I believe in the UK they created a separate wing in the men's prison for men with fake tits

Lovely. If you mean trans women the wing is in a female prison in London.

let trans activists work out how trans people can compete in team sports.

We didn’t say ‘let disabled people work out how disabled people can get better physical access to public buildings’.
Or did you?

You are confusing two things. Mixed sex sports discriminate against women and carry an increased risk of injury, which is why we have single sex sports.

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

Can we get stickers for toilet doors?!

If my husband wore my clothes, clean shaven, even wore some makeup, you would never think he was a woman. I can’t think of a single male in my life that could pass.
I’d love for people to be fighting to free us from sexist stereotypes. I’d love to see hashtags trending like #boysindresses #menindresses #genderisvictorian . Being progressive, is saying sexist stereotypes aren’t so rigid they change your biology. People transitioning is reinforcing these sexist stereotypes,I feel it isn’t the compassionate and supportive care they should be receiving. Many have my sympathy, they’ve been let down by several organisations. However, that doesn’t mean I’m willing to loose my privacy, dignity, sanctuaries, have men’s crimes recorded as our crimes, loose fairness in sports and whatever else I’m forgetting.

@BabyLlamaZen

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that. Which goes back to age old argument of how to tackle that. If therapy doesn't work.. then there is the argument of what does and maybe that's how they'll always feel?

Ah, the age old argument. How do we stop these pesky wimmin from trying to spread abroad the idea that their needs and feelings matter just as much as those of male people?

Subversive, I call it. The idea that women are full human beings in our own right, not just service humans for male people.

I'd say it would be good to have a trans person discuss it here, but may not be great for their mental health with some of the posters here.

I wondered how long it would take for you to show your hand.

I’m going to repost here a comment of mine from another thread because it broadly applies to the issues being discussed here. The conclusion stands in all matters relating to the central question here.

Please, do not feel that your wish to support those who actually need it does not match the general tone on here, as you put it. That is completely untrue. Countless women before you have been where you were, have also been where you are now, and have had to come to the same conclusion.

If we see feminism/feminists/women who post in this section as an entity on MN (whereas of course, we’re not a hive mind, this section is made up of many hundreds of individuals, each with differing opinions and nuances in our views), then we have never been anti-trans, nor transphobic. We have always addressed this issue by saying we completely support the rights of transgender people to live peacefully without fear of harm BUT absolutely not at the expense of women’s and girls’ rights and protections. That is not hateful. Women saying, no, this is not okay, is not hateful.

But as you say, there is no middle ground. And if you force me to choose, I know exactly where my line is. I will not be moved.

let trans activists work out how trans people can compete in team sports.

We didn’t say ‘let disabled people work out how disabled people can get better physical access to public buildings’.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

Surely disabled people would be very much involved in working out solutions. Which is why I am always bemused why the activists have not worked out solutions when it is becoming very apparent that there is some very valid fairness and safety concerns. All I have ever seen is an entrenched narcissistic attitude of we ‘deserve’ to play with women.

@BabyLlamaZen
I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that.

Just on toilets - I don’t think women use the ladies in quite the same way as these (limited) examples.

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1169574515355074560

“Should trans woman Zelda Cross, who asked this question before uploading to the internet an 8 minute video of them masturbating in the women’s toilets, be allowed to use women’s toilets?“

“Should trans woman Aiyona Hunt, who has boasted about attacking women in women’s toilets, be allowed to use women’s toilets?“

“Should trans woman Jessica Yaniv, who has a track record of taking selfies in which other people are photographed, be allowed to use the women’s toilets?“
(my edit to add - let’s not talk about their tampon / young girl fetish)

“Should convicted paedophile Laverne Waskahat, who now identifies as a woman, be allowed to use the women’s toilets even though the police have said they’re likely to use public women's toilets to abuse girls?“

“Should Katie Dolatowski, who is sexually attracted to girls, and discovered that access to them is granted if you identify as a woman, and then sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in a supermarket’s women’s toilet, be allowed to use the women’s toilets?”

Etc. ect. ect.

We didn’t say ‘let disabled people work out how disabled people can get better physical access to public buildings’

To be fair it wasn't feminists or able bodied men who campaigned for disabled access, was it. I believe it was quite difficult for disability activists to even get wheelchair space on the bus sorted, and even now they have problems with parents with prams using the space.

Disabled people constantly need to remind other bus users that the disabled space was created for them and not just anyone who quite fancies using it (sound familiar?).

If you want to compare feminism with disability activism/ disability rights, ask yourself why you think feminists, women, should be the ones to solve all the world's problems?

Feminists centre women. Many women are disabled and virtually all feminists support disability rights. However it would in fact be a bit obnoxious for a feminist or woman who is not disabled to speak over disabled people and try saying they know what's best for them.

I thought trans activists were supposed to fight for trans issues? Are you saying they aren't?

Feminists can't come up with the solution to the world's problems, they can support some ideas of course if they want, but feminists simply focus on what's best for women.

Well said, Gncq