Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

[BabyLlamaZen]

I have sympathy towards JKR whilst also having sympathy towards trans people and I am honestly SO CONFUSED. There are so many elements to this. I'm not even sure what the ideal end result is?

Idea 1. You shouldn't have to transition. Having studied gender identity and gender dysphoria, I both agree that it is extremely real for a lot of trans people to feel like they are in the wrong body whilst also agreeing that this feeling is also a product of our terrible categorical society. I HATE gender stereotypes and sadly, trans people I know have come from extremely sterotypical backgrounds where the opposite gender makes sense to them. If you go into this entire argument, then it generally concludes with the view that very few if any people should be making the full transition. (And those who do are truly unique cases - again if this should ever happen is debatable). This means that boys and girls should be able to dress however they like whilst STAYING boys and girls. Therefore boys can dress like girls with long hair and nails and nail varnish, love babies, be 'sensitive'. Girls can dress like boys with short hair, trousers, have 'masculine traits'. Anyone can do whatever they like but men keep their penis whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves men. Women keeps their vaginas whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves women.

However, this then totally contradicts point 2. 😫

Idea 2. A trans woman who has not completely transitioned cannot use a woman's bathroom/safe space

So you must use the bathroom that matches your genitals, no matter how you act and dress. This is assuming that you NEVER transition and it is impossible to be in the wrong body.

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

So in men's toilets people look like men and women.
In women's toilets people look like women and men.

We can't see anyone's genitals so we dont know the truth. Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet? Especially if they really do feel like women! Because the magic therapy (if it works) hasn't worked yet?

So are we really just confining people to their genitals after all?

Then we also have Idea 3. Society sucks. We cannot change it in time. We cannot completely dress and act like the opposite sex whilst staying the same sex so just let people be happy and transition? ohh but how to do this, doesn't work for Idea 2?

Help.
And this is why it's easier to just say TWAW and carry on with your own life.

It's not women that have any objections to a 3rd space

These men want to claim women's spaces as their own and they want us to stfu about it

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that.
Which goes back to age old argument of how to tackle that. If therapy doesn't work.. then there is the argument of what does and maybe that's how they'll always feel?

stella, because a third space is not validating their identity.

Personally, I value single sex provision for safety, dignity and privacy reasons. TRAs will argue that TW need to access female space because of danger, but the fact that every single suggestion made to deal with that aspect and still preserve female spaces is met with complete dismissal, is a good indication that they are not actually concerned with genuine protection, they simply want to, at best, chase a sense of womanhood they think resides in women's provision, and at worst, get some sort of thrill from pushing a boundary.

@Gotoworkdontgotowork

But then if it is dysphoria about genitalia then really isn't the treatment:

1. counselling in the hope that the person will be accepting of themselves (which is often successful for younger people) or

2. surgery

I mean, if you absolutely hate your body and want to be the opposite sex, not just live with others accepting that you want to present as a woman (but are not) are you not going to transition properly? Because really, isn't the pretence that you have a lady penis going to make you very unhappy (or at least certainly not help!) if you really truly want a vagina? does the harm to your feelings in society not humouring you trump others in their right to feel safe, or to have a doctor of the same sex as them (and reject an appointment with you)? Do you have a right not to have your feelings hurt by the implication that you cannot truly change sex that is provided in counselling materials to younger people who may change their minds?

But OP, I mean are trans women who don't fully transition not always going to struggle to be fully accepted as woman? I mean, it's not going to be possible to have sex as a woman for them - they may find a partner who is happy with their reality of course, but that is not the same as having sex as a woman. In not having surgery, don't you have to make peace with that to a degree? So really if you can make peace with that, why is it so important to make woman validate you in women's public spaces?

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women.

Really? We're supposed to believe that people with penises actually believe they are women?

What do they think the whole transgender stuff is about? Women just are women because of biology.

It's not my job as a woman to share my woman only space to validate the feelings of a man.

@testing987654321 do you really think it is more malicious than that?

@nicenames yes I suppose they might.
Actually, you know it must vary. Some choose not to, some are desperate too it's not all black and white.
I'd say it would be good to have a trans person discuss it here, but may not be great for their mental health with some of the posters here.

I didn't say anything malicious on either side. A man may want to come in the ladies because he feels he is a woman. To that I say, no, the ladies are women only.

If he needs therapy to understand that I am not being unreasonable then I suggest he gets it.

*So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside8

I know many trans women think they pass, but they don't. Sex is instinctively registered. It is in the posture; the gait; the movement; in the facial features; the voice....And sex is not just about the outer body but about deeper internal programmes and imprints which are down to genetics and DNA....Sex is not just clothing...even though within each sex there is a wide spectrum of expression.

We can't see anyone's genitals so we dont know the truth. Why do we even have two separate toilets?Oh wait, some men are perverts

No, that's not quite it. We have separate toilets because each sex has its natural dignity and need for privacy, and many would say ( me included) that is even more the case for women.

Being a woman is certainly not a deficit,,but it does have certain inherent vulnerabilities on account of biology/size/strength etc, and the fact that males tend to be more predatory sexually - more prone to visual ( sexual) stimulation etc.

It is basic biology and life on planet earth. No amount of idealism or ideology is going to alter those facts.

@gotoworkdontgotowork I think it's actually now considered transphobic to think that it's all about dysphoria. That implies there is a mental health issue which is offensive.

even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside

They never, ever do. But that's besides the point. Third space. It's the only way.

Nobody deep down, truly believes they are the opposite sex. That's why the word 'trans' exists. Otherwise - why would it?

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women

I find that hard to believe, because some of them are endlessly talking about their dick. Playing with it, photographing it in women's toilets and changing rooms , posting photos online, threatening to rape women with it.

Have you read the tweets to JKR @BabyLlamaZen? Please do and you will see that those from trans women are all about violence and dicks.

Which is very odd behaviour from people who say they are women. In fact it’s EXACTLY the same as typical male behaviour and completely unlike Typical women’s behaviour.

Such an odd focus on their genitalS from people who say that genitals don’t matter . Or even that they are dysphoric about their own.

I wonder why this is? maybe you could explain to me @BabyLlamaZen

Women don’t generally act like this.

Neither do trans men. No rape threats, photos of them wanking in men’s toilets or changing rooms. No offers to help strange 10 year old boys with their personal care. No photos of their genitals all over the internet .

So it’s got nothing to do with being trans obviously. It’s a mystery.

I don't care if transwomen genuinely believe they are women. We can't codify belief into law.

They're still men no matter how much surgery they have, hormones they take or whether or not they 'pass' as women.

You're confused because you still feel that compulsion to be kind above all else. Many of us have been where you are.

It all becomes much clearer when you use clear language. Male people who may or may not suffer from an anguishing disorder and who may or may not have had any surgery (most keep their penis), are not owed more of my kindness than women and girls. We are not support humans or every sad male's mummy. My daughter's rights, spaces and language are not up for grabs by any man who says they feel a bit uncomfortable with their maleness.
Be kind, to women and girls.

WTF does "fully transitioned" mean?

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women

I actually think it's more accurate to say that (some) transwomen genuinely believe they are not male.

The thing is that women aren't just people who are not male. Not feeling or identifying as a male does not make someone a woman. In the same way that just because I do not understand what it means to feel like or identify as a woman in a way that does not involve biology I am not a man.

It's not unusual to hear boys being called girls because they're upset though. Doesn't make it true though.

I was also told as a teenager/young women that I wasn't a 'proper girl' anyway because I drank pints/liked sport/insert whatever other bullshit reason here.

Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet?

Sounds like a problem with men doesn't it. Why not find some predominantly male websites and ask them?

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women

A belief system does not trump my right to safety, dignity and privacy.

And demanding that we re-writing laws as a result of that belief, expecting others to join in with the lie to spare hurt egos and erasing the rights of females is the ultimate in male privilege.

I might genuinely believe I’m Henry VIII . Is it Hermionephobic or unkind or violence if I’m not allowed to live at Hampton Court?

Validation aside ‘3rd space’ is still just another way of saying
‘trans women aren’t women and trans men aren’t men’.
Won’t work.