Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

[BabyLlamaZen]

I have sympathy towards JKR whilst also having sympathy towards trans people and I am honestly SO CONFUSED. There are so many elements to this. I'm not even sure what the ideal end result is?

Idea 1. You shouldn't have to transition. Having studied gender identity and gender dysphoria, I both agree that it is extremely real for a lot of trans people to feel like they are in the wrong body whilst also agreeing that this feeling is also a product of our terrible categorical society. I HATE gender stereotypes and sadly, trans people I know have come from extremely sterotypical backgrounds where the opposite gender makes sense to them. If you go into this entire argument, then it generally concludes with the view that very few if any people should be making the full transition. (And those who do are truly unique cases - again if this should ever happen is debatable). This means that boys and girls should be able to dress however they like whilst STAYING boys and girls. Therefore boys can dress like girls with long hair and nails and nail varnish, love babies, be 'sensitive'. Girls can dress like boys with short hair, trousers, have 'masculine traits'. Anyone can do whatever they like but men keep their penis whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves men. Women keeps their vaginas whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves women.

However, this then totally contradicts point 2. 😫

Idea 2. A trans woman who has not completely transitioned cannot use a woman's bathroom/safe space

So you must use the bathroom that matches your genitals, no matter how you act and dress. This is assuming that you NEVER transition and it is impossible to be in the wrong body.

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

So in men's toilets people look like men and women.
In women's toilets people look like women and men.

We can't see anyone's genitals so we dont know the truth. Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet? Especially if they really do feel like women! Because the magic therapy (if it works) hasn't worked yet?

So are we really just confining people to their genitals after all?

Then we also have Idea 3. Society sucks. We cannot change it in time. We cannot completely dress and act like the opposite sex whilst staying the same sex so just let people be happy and transition? ohh but how to do this, doesn't work for Idea 2?

Help.
And this is why it's easier to just say TWAW and carry on with your own life.

You said

Anyone can do whatever they like but men keep their penis whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves men. Women keeps their vaginas whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves women.

So why would they want to use the toilet of the opposite sex if they accept their biological sex?

And I should point out that the children he says that to just say oh right and smile. They're not in the least bit phased by the idea that all people can enjoy dancing or have long hair.

Here you go OP

Read this first
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

This is unlikely.

The answer isn't that complicated and is already used in my gyms and leisure centres. Just provide a third unisex space.

Also, here is a thread already in progress

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3935416-Please-help-me-understand-the-transgender-issue?msgid=97356266#97356266

@TheYellowOfTheEgg

Cycling is a good analogy actually. Was it pedestrians, sick of being injured by cyclists riding on the pavement, that campaigned, reasonably successfully, for cycle lanes, or was it cyclists, sick of being injured by motorists?

Quite frankly trans/mens rights are not at the top of my list of priorities, what is at the top of my list of priorities are the rights of women and girls, rights which are constantly being eroded by a vast minority of people who think if they go out dressed in clothing a prostitute would baulk at wearing they are suddenly "women".
Proud to be a TERF quite honestly.

BabyLlamaZen
I know others here are exasperated by the newbies and the questions, and I do think newbies should take on board that they need to do the hard graft of reading up, but I am on a day off, and in a fairly sanguine mood, so I am quite happy to help genuine newbies who have suddenly discovered all this.

Ask yourself what you mean by 'fully transition'. Do you believe it's possible to change sex? I'm guessing you don't and that what you mean is a man who has had genital surgery, hormones and perhaps other cosmetic interventions to approximate a culturally western presentation of femininity?

Do you honestly think that this superficial stereotype of 'woman' means that a man has transitioned into a genuinely new category that means he can now be considered a woman? Because it looks to me like that means 'woman' as a category one could move into, is simply 'man without penis performing femininity' which I hope you could see was incredibly insulting and harmful to women.

And yes, nearly all of us here have said third spaces are the way forward. Which has been repeatedly rejected, because sadly, the safety of your average trans person is not actually the main concern of the transactivist, it's simply a very useful wedge to pop open single sex female provision and end it in any meaningful sense.

Cycling is a good analogy indeed.

Which is why we have cycle lanes. A third space of you will. So cars, cyclists and pedestrians are catered for safely.

Many people here want a third space. Many on twitter seem not to, but it makes sense to me.

Also educating boys and men to be more tolerant, kind and accepting.

Wouldn’t a world where a man could walk into the men’s toilet, or gym changing room, dressed in a skirt- however they identify- and feel no fear or threat from other men be a great world?

How does one fully transition - from what and to what?

@Haworthia

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

Once again for those in the cheap seats.

Women are human beings. We're not human shields.

I'm relatively new here myself and I'm feeling positive that JKR's essay has highlighted this discussion to more women. I think that was her intention and it's literally the only positive I can take away from it because when you look at Twitter and most of the media reporting it's seriously grim.
So even tho it's not my place, I say welcome @BabyLlamaZen and thank you for coming to learn more.
But what Delirium said above.
There's a renowned pic that Graham Linehan uses a lot of a trans woman in a full beard and some light make-up called Alex who goes into schools to 'educate' children on trans issues and tells them he is a lesbian.
The quote Alex says (and I apologise for misgendering, I know others disagree but I try to be respectful) is 'I want to expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman.'
But the question is, why isn't Alex expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a man? A man with a beard who likes having long hair and wearing female clothing and using make up?
Why does Alex feel like gender is a binary thing (which makes the trans movement so regressive) and that because he likes these things that must mean he's a woman?
Those of us who grew up in the 70s have known decades of men and women playing with gender norms and being accepted as their own sex but who look or behave a little differently to most of society.
If Alex feels in some way unsafe using male toilets (perhaps because of comments or abuse he might get) the answer isn't asking women to compromise their own safety and single-sex spaces by handing them to anyone who says they 'are' a woman.
The answer is to educate men to be more accepting of difference in males.
If we need Alex to feel safer more quickly than it takes to change the attitudes of men (tell us a fucking bout it) then let's have 'cycle lanes' to ensure everyone has a space that they feel happy to use.

Why do we even have two separate toilets?

Because, for reasons of space, most toilet facilities are a room with cubicles, and a cubicle doesn't offer much privacy or protection.

Because, for reasons of space men's toilets contain urinals and women don't want to enter a room where a man can legitimately expose his penis.

Because women actually need more toilets because they need to undress every time they use a toilet.

Because women need more toilets because they also have to deal with periods.

So are we really just confining people to their genitals after all?

Yes, your genitals do dictate how you can use a toilet.

The fact men rape with their genitals kinda make it an important point..

There are so many elements to this OP. That is why the 'Break it down' thread is a good place to start. You seem really only focused on the toilet issue at the moment. I actually think one of the best ways to start thinking about the breadth of this is:

• women's refuges and prisons - should any male bodied person be able to be accommodated with women who are suffering from male violence and rape.
• do you think that women should have the right to request (and get) a health care professional of the sex you are comfortable with? No? What about a survivor of rape and abuse?
• sports - do you think it is fair that if the independent studies (not provisioned by transgender lobbyists) show that the benefits to the body of a male puberty are minimally reduced with the reduction of testosterone?
• do you think it is right that FGM are told that it is transphobic to call this vile practice Female Genital Mutilation because it is not inclusive?
• employment - are you happy that women are well represented when a gender balanced board may include 50% men and 50% transwomen?

These are just a few other things to start you thinking. The thing is... the breadth of the potential harm to women's rights at this time is wide and it actually runs very deep.

Thanks @Z0rr0

BabyLlamaZen
What do you mean by ''fully transitioned?'' Anyone can apply for a gender recognition certificate and new birth certificate without any surgery at all.

The point of feminism is that it is a movement for the rights of women. Your starting point is 'what is a woman'. Either we exist as a distinct class with needs and wants that relate to our sex; or we don't.

Spot on, Z0rr0

"But the question is, why isn't Alex expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a man? A man with a beard who likes having long hair and wearing female clothing and using make up?"

This^

"Why does Alex feel like gender is a binary thing (which makes the trans movement so regressive) and that because he likes these things that must mean he's a woman?"

This^

"The answer is to educate men to be more accepting of difference in males."

And this^

I would actually be called a terf by some people so if anything I thought you'd want to discuss it.

Many of the women here ARE called a ‘terf’ by some people - on a daily basis. And have been discussing it for the last 5 years.

Therefore boys can dress like girls with long hair and nails and nail varnish, love babies, be 'sensitive'. Girls can dress like boys with short hair, trousers, have 'masculine traits'.

For some people it has little to do with hair or clothes. It’s more dysphoria about genitalia and secondary sex characteristics. And wanting to be perceived as the sex they feel they are.
Normalise gender non conformity, great. But it won’t solve the problem for most transsexuals.

Well I should say probably won’t solve the problem for most. I don’t actually know for 100% fact.

Embrace the Terf.

I have been going on about this for years. Some family and friends were so glad to talk about it early on, some have slowly started to get it, some friends I have lost over it. I have made new friends talking about it.

If we don't start talking about it, we will lose our rights. Be careful at work etc

OP, but why does someone need to use the bathroom of their chosen gender stereotype?

If you just look at bathrooms as being about biological characteristics - ability to pee standing up, need for period bins, physical traits that are liable to make you more dangerous to women if you choose to, does it matter how people are dressed?

Isn't part of the issue that masculine stereotyping makes it difficult to say "I love wearing dresses, I want to be embraced as a feminine man" and be celebrated and accepted as a man? I.e. trans activists are often asking women to solve what is a male issue.

After all, some trans men choose to use female spaces and women don't mind.

Why do people not want a third space? It just seems like the obvious answer to me.