The Body Shop has fallen

[Cismyfatarse1]

Just seen this on Twitter.

For those who like their Ginger Shampoo, can I suggest MooGoo.

Also, Aveeno is a good replacement for their Shea butter.

Other thoughts welcome. Feel free to suggest other ideas.

Please could someone explain what ratioed means? Sorry, Twitter newbie here.

The ironic thing is that the Body Shop have a gender pay gap of 75%, which they try to explain away by saying that most of the people in the low paid shop jobs are women, and most of the people in the well paid office jobs are men.

I mean what can you do if women just keep choosing to do these badly paid jobs....

@GrimSisters

Please could someone explain what ratioed means? Sorry, Twitter newbie here.

It means more people have replied to the tweet than have liked/retweeted it, which is an indication of disagreement.

I’m not worried it isn’t ratiod anymore - of course the trans supporters will go and like it when it gains publicity. Doesn’t alter the fact there is clear strength of feeling against it from their target market.

Sheer hypocrisy. Just take down the gender pay gap reports, Body Shop. The pretence is embarrassing.

If trans women are women, how can any individual or company use their cause to bully, harass and humiliate a woman for tweeting about a fairer world for people who menstruate?

'Seasidetrains, I really would be interested to know why you think women wearing t-shirts and jeans that a man could wear without comment are victims of male violence; given that you think violence against women is prompted by feminine dress.'

i never said that violence against women is prompted by feminine dress. to oversimplify your point like you are oversimplifying mine, are you saying that a woman has never been attacked by a man who is shorter or physically weaker than her?
i don't think that's what you are saying, OBVIOUSLY, but it's a bit depressing that i'm trying to discuss these issues civilly and i just keep getting shouted at for supposedly saying that girls like pink and glitter and women are assaulted based on how they dress.

I thought Yorkshire tea spoke out for BLM, not trans rights? Or did they do both then? I’m losing track...

@ChurchOfWokeApostate

I thought Yorkshire tea spoke out for BLM, not trans rights? Or did they do both then? I’m losing track...

Yes, I'm confused on that point too.

Seasidetrains
To be fair, you said people are at risk from male violence due to their behaviour more than actual biology (Unless I’ve misunderstood, which I don’t think I have)
ie a man with stereotypical feminine behaviour is as likely to be targeted by male violence.
What people are asking you is if it’s just as much to do with behaviour can you please let us know how to behave so outlet risk from male violence is lessoned?
And if there is no way to behave that will lesson the risk, does it not stand to reason it’s not actually to do with behaviour after all?

GimmeAy would you mind popping your earmuffs on, you're creating a draft.

So if a straight man wants to attack a transwoman all he has to do is self ID himself as female and be allowed into the womans toilets/changing rooms and he has access to the TW.

isn't it almost like a turkey voting for christmas....?
don't the TW also want safe spaces for women?

No. Not this particular ilk.

Welp, never buying from the Body Shop again. Which won't be hard.

I wonder if the people running these corporate social media accounts have any sense at all. No-one was crying out to hear their opinion on this. They didn't have to wade in and try to profit. But they have. I wonder if the genderist crowd will buy enough of their products to offset the women they just drove away?

Something tells me no. That crowd all shop at Lush. The Body Shop doesn't quite have the same aesthetic appeal. They're like a Holland & Barrett frequented by your mum. I wonder if they see the problem there. I wonder if someone is shouting down the phone at someone right now.

People really do love to underestimate middle aged mums, even when their fortunes are built by them. The Body Shop should ask M&S how that attitude is going.

When we learn to admit that trans women are women we can start using their products again.

Ah. So never, then.

I don't know what rights these are that are being taken away?

You don't have the right to a single sex toilet on private or public property.

You don't have the right to a single sex changing room on private or public property.

You don't have the right to a single sex prison.

You don't have the right to play a sport against someone of the same sex.

These are not rights. These are things that make sense and make women feel more comfortable but they aren't women's rights or even human rights. No one is trying to take away our 'rights' so that argument doesn't stand. We were never given these things as rights.

The right term should be that trans people, trans women especially, want more privileges and understanding than women will get if this is all allowed but they should get their own privileges and understanding (their own toilets, their own changing rooms, their own leagues in sports etc) because it's taken women since the beginning of time to get these privileges (if you can call it that) and we're still fighting for it now because trans women have now started trying to take it away so why should it just be handed to trans people and be a right when it never has been for women? Like women did the fight for it and trans people can just moan and get it? Fight your own fight should be what is being said, don't latch on to ours and take away what we achieved. We never chose to be female but we are and have had to suffer the disadvantages. If you become trans, realise that you made that choice knowing there's not much provision for you and you won't live as a biological woman but you have options to create your own world. You aren't a woman, you are a trans woman. You can be known as a woman no problem, doesn't affect anyone. No amount of fantasy or shouting will change that you aren't a woman. You can live as a trans woman and come together with other trans women and supporters to create a life and provisions that are comfortable for you but you'll never gets rights to these provisions because women never have, humans never have! Trans people have been granted the same rights as men and women, they will forever fight for equality but who hasn't other than white men? The argument is about trans women wanting to be superior in their privileges above women. If they take spaces, they have an advantage and women have a disadvantage, again! The world shouldn't be like that.

So no, they aren't trying to take away our rights, they want our few privileges to be handed to them on a silver platter and given to them as a right. No way

are you saying that a woman has never been attacked by a man who is shorter or physically weaker than her?

I'm not sure what your point is here, but most men can physically overpower most women. It is rare for somebody to attack someone is is bigger and physically stronger without the aid of a weapon.

You said

male (sex) people who want to play with dolls and wear dresses are also at risk of (male) violence. i see it as femaleness being the object of hatred and violence, not just people who have specific female physical characteristics.

The people most likely to be attacked by men are men.

Most women attacked by men are victims of domestic violence.

There is little data on violence against transwomen in the UK.

There is no evidence to show that men attack women because they hate femininity, or that women who are attacked are particularly feminine or that transwomen and women suffer similar kinds of violence.

The ironic thing is that the Body Shop have a gender pay gap of 75%, which they try to explain away by saying that most of the people in the low paid shop jobs are women, and most of the people in the well paid office jobs are men. I mean what can you do if women just keep choosing to do these badly paid jobs....

You know, I do actually think in some cases women as a group really choose somewhat different sorts of work than men, and that's in large part related to many being mothers.

But that would still indicate, quite strongly really, that there are biological entailments related to womanhood.

@Otterseatpuffinsdontthey

Q

@Otterseatpuffinsdontthey I’ve asked you before but you never replied - why do you just post random Qs on threads and never comment?

If it’s because you want to mark the thread, just add it to your watch list.

my point is: when the way you behave coincides with what is considered to be 'how women behave', you become a target of hatred and violence.

I think you're making the mistake of lumping a few different issues together here. On the one hand we have discrimination against those (male or female) who do not conform to gendered stereotypes. So we see vitriol aimed at butch lesbians as well as feminine males.

On the other hand we have discrimination against the female sex. I presume (hope) you'd agree that there are types of discrimination that apply to all female people, regardless of how they dress or behave. A lot of this stems from the idea that females are somehow innately emotional/irrational/carers/domesticated. You could argue that transmen do not experience this and I would argue that they will have done up until the point at which they could effectively disguise themselves as having been born male.

It's not by coincidence that these stereotypes about the female sex have existed in pretty much every culture and society around the world. It's a way to control reproduction and to keep people born female in their boxes as mothers and wives rather than independent beings.

The point JK Rowling is making is that we cannot just focus on the first type of discrimination and ignore the second. The concept of gender identity is effectively erasing the ability for females to talk about sex-based oppression. For many people, myself included, this sex-based oppression has had a far bigger impact on their opportunities in life.

The Body Shop Twitter feed is just one virtue signalling post after another. They've jumped on so many bandwagons it's untrue. It's just a load of marketing shite. Grabby grabby consumerism.

@Seasidetrains

'Seasidetrains, I really would be interested to know why you think women wearing t-shirts and jeans that a man could wear without comment are victims of male violence; given that you think violence against women is prompted by feminine dress.'

i never said that violence against women is prompted by feminine dress. to oversimplify your point like you are oversimplifying mine, are you saying that a woman has never been attacked by a man who is shorter or physically weaker than her?
i don't think that's what you are saying, OBVIOUSLY, but it's a bit depressing that i'm trying to discuss these issues civilly and i just keep getting shouted at for supposedly saying that girls like pink and glitter and women are assaulted based on how they dress.

Giving you information isn't shouting at you. In fact, despite your wilful and deliberate understanding of points to try to derail or undermine our arguments, no-one has lost their cool.

If you want to see shouting, go to JK R's twitter page or look at a video of a WPUK meeting, the TRAs do shout.

Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel thank you! 😊

I opened this thread at about 11pm last night, clicked the Twitter link, and with this and jkr I'm literally still awake. Fucking unreal

Might I add, I've been in a huge rabbit hole of debates, not just so surprised I couldn't sleep, it's scary how unsurprising it all is.

@Seasidetrains and to pick up on another argument you made about "what makes a woman? What about a woman with no womb? With no breasts? etc"

Unfortunately this argument doesn't really make sense in the real world. It has been absolutely vital to the continuation of our species that humans can easily differentiate between males and females. Even babies and dogs can tell the difference. We can tie ourselves in knots about whether it's chromosomes or gametes or whatever but the reality is that, for the vast majority of people, we can tell what class of reproductive organs someone has by their face/voice alone.

That's why "passing" as the opposite sex is so incredibly difficult and normally involves serious surgeries, hormone treatments etc.

No one is saying that your sex should confer a specific identity or stereotypes. No one is saying any of this is a good thing or something to be celebrated, quite the contrary. But pretending that the male/female sex doesn't exist is like saying "I don't see colour". It's stupid and it gets us nowhere.