Pro-woman is just a euphemism for transphobic

[Littlemeadow123]

Exactly that.

Transgender people are not eroding our rights as women. Although, the people making such spiteful and ignorant comments and talking about trying to stop them getting recognized as women are eroding their rights to be accepted, respected equal. Do you all honestly think that by speaking out AGAINST transgender people, you are going to be declared as heroes?

And what happened to be kind?

@Winesalot thank you for the clarification, I was probably a touch defensive as any time I have posted on here with a slightly different view than the majority I get ridiculed and bullied off the thread. I personally think there are some huge issues with self ID, and I don’t believe trans women are “real women”, however, I agree with another poster that there does appear to me to be some very harsh views against trans people as a whole that I can’t subscribe to and that makes me feel unwelcome on this board as trans rights is an extremely dominant topic on here.

“No one believes twaw, not really, not deep down, not even transwomen themselves.”

Do tell us what else we believe and don’t believe...

@Elsiebear90 I also feel like there isn't much middle ground

I don't think most of the posters here are confused, tbh. & a year ago I'd have agreed we were scared, but the tide is turning, & many of us are finding the courage to speak openly.

but I wouldn't deny a trans woman her right to be in the female only space I asked for at uni, or if a trans woman wanted to get changed in the same changing room as me.

It is not a right, as pp said.

It's lovely that you are comfortable and happy and privileged enough to enjoy mixed sex spaces. That's great. I'm all for the additional compulsory provision of mixed sex spaces for better inclusion and comfort for all.

However if you simply insist that any male who chooses to must be allowed to use the female only provision as a 'right' - what will you be doing with the females who are now excluded from that provision or any provision at all because they are not privileged enough to be able to enjoy a mixed sex space?

Often for reasons of vulnerability and disadvantage. You sound like a person who cares about such things, and about social justice, and about inclusion. What do you feel about meeting the rights and needs of those females? Surely female people aren't less important than people born male?

And doesn't it seem appropriate to you that a feminist board - who mean by 'feminist' the centering and working for female issues and needs - would care about and wish to ensure the rights of females as a class are not removed in way that advantages males - but at the cost of many vulnerable, disadvantaged females?

[quote Sojo88]@Winesalot

Thanks :)

To be honest the reason I haven't answered a lot of pp's questions is I do find this quite a hard topic to completely get my head round, and I can't explain my thoughts very well on here. I just often see a lot of seemingly very harsh comments towards transwomen on MN - and it makes me wonder why everyone has such harsh views. I appreciate there are issues and some feel it imposes on their rights as women, but I personally don't feel like this.[/quote]
Fair enough that you don't personally feel this. But it is always important to look at both side of any argument and often the right answer becomes apparent. Particularly if you start by looking at for instance, women's sports and sex discrimination in the workplace and that now 'women's' crimes are being skewed by male bodied peoples crimes etc.

Perhaps when you encounter these issues you will have to work out if even giving an inch is the right way to go if the replication effect changes a whole heap of other rights that you never considered. Either way, thanks for explaining your position.

You're overly sarcastic, I know better tone is really off putting aswell tbh, I come to these birds curious, open to getting my mind changed but I just get shot down and the same thing repeated at me, told aww well you've been brainwashed, by people who sound brain washed. It's like the left and the right in America, each side pointing the finger at the other and screaming about why their right and the other side is wrong.

If anything this feminist board has stuck me more into my current thinking, let tranwomen into female spaces if that's where they feel most comfortable, and if you don't, then try on your clothes elsewhere, use a locked door cubicle in the swimming area. People shouldn't feel shame or weird about nude bodies, male, female, intersex, all bodies are beautiful and nakedness should be normalised.

Why do TRA's need to change womens rights? Why don't they try to get individual cubicles instead of wanting to enter womens bathrooms? Why don't they ask for all changing rooms to be private instead of wanting to be naked with a lady dick in front of 8 year old girls in the womens changing room? Why don't they push for those things? Why don't TRA's have to "be kind"? There is no good reason why women need to give up rights. They can push for rights that would benefit all of us but instead they choose to make many female born women unhappy and feel vulnerable. It's not the job of women to make other people happy, they need to respect our hard gotten rights first.

@NekoShiro

Yeah I haven't read a lot of the comments in the feminism board, I don't have the free leisure time to endlessly scroll through utter garbage, it's just random people throwing their random opinions out into the void, and I've been trying to talk to people about what the issue is with trans people but I just get people frothing at the mouth about how their impeding our rights, when I say rights I mean human rights. Not male or female rights, the rights to live on this earth as a human being with dignity and respect, not to get treated like they are litterally eroding womans rights and that they are a parasite in the cultural movements.

I would love for my eyes to be opened from all the lies I've been told but none of you are doing it, none of you can actually give me anything concrete other than you're scared and confused.

We're neither scared nor confused. We're righteously pissed off.

If you think this entire section is garbage I wonder why you're even here? Would it have made more sense to scroll past?

I'm going to start a whipround to help posters in FWR who don't have a scroll button. It must be terribly distressing, poor lambs.

@Alyssum34456 I respectfully disagree, I have concerns about self ID, but I don’t view trans people as having a fetish or mental health problems, I respect their right to transition and I will call them by their preferred pronouns, but I also don’t believe just saying “I’m a woman” means you should be treated as a woman and that this is open to abuse and is inherently dangerous to women, as I have discussed in other threads. I have no issues with post op transsexual women using women’s spaces, but I do have an issue with men only having to say “I’m a woman” to be allowed in. I think this is somewhat of a middle ground, however, others may disagree.

Yes, I'm scared, Neko. Scared of males given carte blanche to enter female spaces, scared of being assigned a male for health care procedures, even if I ask for a woman. I'm scared on behalf of women who are too afraid to access rape crisis centres in case there are male bodies or male voices there to greet them. I'm scared for women in prison being attacked by males. I'm scared for girls in schools who are told that if they question a male getting changed alongside them then they are bigoted. I'm scared for children getting told that if they feel they're 'in the wrong body' then they should be given medication for that, instead of being offered the support they need.

I am wholeheartedly in agreement that trans people should live with dignity and respect, absolutely! Do I get the dignity and respect of being called a woman, and my rights to a male-free space respected, too?

Sojo welcome - you sound like you're up for discussing and listening which you'll find lots of here.

I'll be honest, sometimes my tone will be short and snappy when I feel a poster is being goady or demonstrates zero empathy for women and kids. Like many here I'm aware of how trans ideology and self ID have been/could be abused in the name of trans people and the consequences of that frighten me. If you look on the Break it Down for me you'll be . Another one I can't remember the exact name of (This Never Happens?) is a scary good read.

MN is one of the few places where we can be angry and not be overly policed (although there have been moments). That's why we feel safe saying how we feel.

I'm sure all posters on this thread support all trans people in living safely but that must not be at the expense of the rights that women before us fought and died for.

Keep talking

If anything this feminist board has stuck me more into my current thinking, let tranwomen into female spaces if that's where they feel most comfortable, and if you don't, then try on your clothes elsewhere, use a locked door cubicle in the swimming area. People shouldn't feel shame or weird about nude bodies, male, female, intersex, all bodies are beautiful and nakedness should be normalised.

So basically anyone who doesn't think and feel like you should be excluded as a punishment for their lesserness. Disabled females, traumatised females, females of cultures and races different to yours.... bit supremacist isn't it? Bit 'othering' and superior? Your privilege is showing a whole lot.

This is no kind of answer to make society a better, happier place. Until there is equal respect for everyone in this situation and solutions that will work for all, this is not a way forward that will lead to good outcomes.

To the OP, sock puppets and other dog whistlers:
^*
Do you believe women should continue to have all the rights they currently have in law?*^

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Do tell us what else we believe and don’t believe

Who is this "we"? Women or transwomen?

@Burgundy1844

“I hope that if you have genuine questions, that you feel free to ask. Or just read some threads such as 'break it down' to understand the breadth of this topic”

If you have genuine questions then I’d recommend you explore the wealth of balanced and well informed sources out there rather than the toxic discourse on these threads.

Strangely Burgundy, I do this on a weekly basis. How often do you do it?

I often read, as many do here on MN, the articles and theories published by people who have balanced views, and even the ones completely biased that justify why males should be able to call themselves not just women, but females. I take out my views and I check them over regularly so to speak. I am learning everyday. As I said, I do not feel I can call myself a feminist. I have not studied it and I don't read feminist books.

I am afraid though, that all I have seen from you today is a lack of willingness to engage and a whole lot of 'toxic' shaming. I have read deeply on these boards and what I have noticed is that if you treat people with respect and patience, everyone might learn something.

all bodies are beautiful and nakedness should be normalised

Hop on over to porn hub, there are lots of men there ready to get off with you, don't worry about the violence, trafficking, abuse and slavery on there, it's just part of the normalisation isn't it.

Males aren't coming into my spaces. Males do not get to go where they want, my spaces are mine and I will not be expected to flee them. If any woman wants to get changed alongside males she is free to use the men's facilities - well, perhaps not because men also value their privacy and dignity and will want her to be removed from their space. In women's spaces, my NO and the NO of any other woman or girl is all that matters. It is not up for debate. The ones whining for access need to learn to be a lot kinder and get some respect for boundaries.

Be Kind

medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d

Since Neko can't be bothered to scroll, I'll repeat my earlier question as succinctly as I can.

The OHCHR says women prisoners have a right to be housed in single sex accommodation. Convicted rapist Karen White wants to be housed according to his self-professed gender (and is currently housed against those wishes in a men's prison).

If trans rights don't take anything from women's rights, please explain to me how acceding to both these claimed rights at the same time is possible.

Don't feed the troll. There's no discussion to be had. The posting pattern is meant to incite. You're safe with us JK.

If you really believe my DD should get changed elsewhere for swimming or accept being alone with a strange man in a changing room, with a penis, in close proximity to her then you need to talk to a professional.

Nakedness should be normalised in this context?? WTF

Being kind never got anyone anywhere other than on the door step...as a door mat.

what I have noticed is that if you treat people with respect and patience, everyone might learn something.

If the political transactivist lobby would treat females with respect and patience, as opposed to rape threats, death threats, hammering on windows and kettling, screaming abuse and NoDebating… most of these issues would never have arisen in the first place.