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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is BLM a trojan horse?

320 replies

Thingybob · 08/06/2020 09:58

Am I the only one feeling uneasy about the BLM movement?

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise)

blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

OP posts:
justanotherneighinparadise · 08/06/2020 10:02

Interesting!

JellySlice · 08/06/2020 10:08

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Porpoises · 08/06/2020 10:20

Oh dear God. No, black lives matter is not a trans plot pretending to be an international antiracist uprising.

Fair enough to disagree with parts of their politics, you'll find similar things in many left wing campaigning organisations. Trojan horse though?

WTFSeriously · 08/06/2020 10:21

BLM was started by 3 black women Link to website details on the founders - the movement seems to have grown exponentially & their website does the 'centre black trans women' seen across all other areas & platforms involving campaigning or specific causes. BLM in itself is about all black people so I'm not sure of the wisdom in elevating Black TW when the people who have been the catalyst of the movement being established were not trans. I might have missed those people who have been shot & killed by police & who were identified as trans, or Black TW, so I may be wrong. But it's looks very much like the same MO as that across LGBT & feminist orgs who are all about the T.

WTFSeriously · 08/06/2020 10:23

This is from their website too:

We affirm the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. Our network centers those who have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.

WTFSeriously · 08/06/2020 10:24

And this:

#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

CaraDune · 08/06/2020 10:26

Short answer: No.

Long answer - it's been infiltrated to some degree, and therefore feels it has to have the obligatory "we put trans lives in the centre of what we do" rider, but so have many organisations, not just on the left (think of the institutional capture of the CPS, various police forces, GCHQ etc.)

WTFSeriously · 08/06/2020 10:26

So basically, BLM is no more a 'Trojan horse' than every other third sector type campaign org nowadays.

WTFSeriously · 08/06/2020 10:27

X/posted. Yup, no more that any other similar campaign orgs across many areas.

EmperorCovidula · 08/06/2020 10:31

How bizarre. I guess trans is in fashion at the moment and it’s just a reflection of that.

testing987654321 · 08/06/2020 10:35

It didn't occur to me that BLM was an organisation, I thought it was a statement of something that should be obvious.

Plumpi · 08/06/2020 10:35

especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence

It's a message against violence! Even if you're not into trans ideology, surely you don't want trans women hurt? I think everyone should support the physical safety of black people, no matter how they identify. It's such a low standard. Your concerns are really disturbing, OP.

DishRanAwayWithTheSpoon · 08/06/2020 10:39

No. Its not

However I think like the majority of similar campaigns, it has been used to further other causes

I do think that theres a subset of trans people that make everything 'what about us'. And you cant post a good cause without clarifying that you do in fact put trans peoples rights at the forefront. And I think theres a bit of upwokemanship going on.

However that doesnt mean BLM is about trans people. Its not, its about black people.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 08/06/2020 10:49

The thing is, when feminists say "we support all women, including transwomen" it doesn't make sense, because transwomen aren't a type of woman. Even if everyone on the planet agreed and believed they were, they still wouldn't be, because reality exists independant of human belief systems. However when BLM say "we support all black people, including transwomen" it makes sense, because black transwomen are in fact black. Unless they're a Rachel dolzeal type which I can definitely see more people doing in the future, but right now it's not really a thing. So black transwomen don't belong in feminism as they aren't women, but they do belong in BLM because they are black. If BLM think it's important to centre their experiences of racism in their movement then who am I to oppose that? The only problem would be if they acted like by representing the interests of black TW they were also representing the interests of black women. I suspect that this will be the case sadly and that black women will be left behind by their own movement, but that's a separate issue.

stillathing · 08/06/2020 10:51

Agreed it is rare to find an organisation that does not have a similar statement about trans rights.

I support BLM, but I guess now in much the same way I support Labour. I'd prefer an alternative that was not misogynistic but there does not seem to be one.

It is not wrong to voice concerns over the matter. Where the dominant discourse on trans rights is to set them up as being opposite to women's rights, then women will always be oppressed. Black women already experience systemic racism as well as systemic sexism.

NekoShiro · 08/06/2020 10:52

'McDade’s death is believed to be the 12th violent death of a transgender or gender nonconforming person in the United States this year. 2018 saw 26 such deaths. So did 2019. In 2013, the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs reported that transgender people of color were six times more likely to experience physical violence from the police compared to white cisgender people.'

www.thelily.com/tony-mcdade-was-a-black-transgender-man-shot-by-police-in-may-protesters-are-fighting-to-keep-his-memory-alive/

It is believed that Tony was under great threat, he was reportedly being targeted with violence by five cisgender men on account of his being trans and his death is thought to be the result of trying to defend himself against these brutal hate crimes. Clifford Butler, an eyewitness of the incident, told a local newspaper: “I never heard ‘Get down, freeze, I’m an officer’ – nothing. I just heard gunshots.”

www.independent.co.uk/voices/george-floyd-black-lives-matter-racism-tony-mcdade-transgender-a9544131.html

Black trans life's do fall under the umbrella of black lives when they say black lives matter.

NewAccountForCorona · 08/06/2020 10:55

"uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women ..." Why especially Black transwomen - men then - rather than everyone trans?

I don't for a minute think that BLM is a front for TRAs by the way. I just find it interesting that men who are trans seem to be so much more important than anyone else who is gender questioning.

Lordfrontpaw · 08/06/2020 11:04

It’s just the cuckoos in the nest, as usual.

NonnyMouse1337 · 08/06/2020 11:08

I wouldn't call BLM a Trojan horse, but what you've posted is very interesting. They have fallen into the trap of identity politics and intersectionality like many other groups, organisations and movements, which only seems to lead to a downward spiral. It's up to them to fix it or not.

I like this bit too.
We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

Funny how 'sex' in always missed out..... Whether its government documents or legislation, campaign group materials etc.
Adult human females are repeatedly edged out of conversations, including those that are black. Sexual orientation is also being eroded. We are now a jumble of 'identities' that we can pick and choose, like 'sexual identity'. Same sex attraction is a choice after all. Wink

Justhadathought · 08/06/2020 11:10

I don't for a minute think that BLM is a front for TRAs by the way. I just find it interesting that men who are trans seem to be so much more important than anyone else who is gender questioning

Any movement which contains, or is primarily, about men will almost inevitably be given greater priority.Same with the Socialist movement. It was primarily about working men; women were a secondary consideration - even as women stood alongside to support - feeling their rights mattered too. Old fashioned hard leftists are still about the struggle of the working man - no matter how it is dressed up as something other.

Deliriumoftheendless · 08/06/2020 11:12

I think Grabthar has summed it up perfectly.

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 08/06/2020 11:13

It is believed that Tony was under great threat, he was reportedly being targeted with violence by five cisgender men on account of his being trans and his death is thought to be the result of trying to defend himself against these brutal hate crimes.

These claims tend to be untrue or misleading.

Tony McDade killed next-door neighbour, Malik Jackson, 21, after pledging to do so on FB Live.

www.facebook.com/tony.mcdade.39/

McDade had mental health and drug problems.

The police claimed that McDade had a gun when arrested, hence the shooting. Others have said not.

However McDade spent 10 years in prison for gun crimes so the police claims have credibility.

www.tallahassee.com/story/news/local/2020/06/02/natosha-tony-mcdade-tallahasssee-protests-protest-mental-illness-fatal-stabbing-police-shooting/5300384002/

From the article:

After serving a five-year prison sentence for armed robbery, McDade was behind bars again on a probation violation she got after Tallahassee police found her with guns and drugs.

She wrote then-Leon Circuit Judge Mark Walker in early October 2009 pleading for mental health treatment and begging for a second chance. She said the underlying robbery was actually "a drug deal gone bad" and that someone set her up with the gun to get her in trouble.

McDade said her rap sheet of more than a dozen arrests showed she was “a fighter not a gun user” and pleaded to be sent to Florida State Hospital in Chattahoochee for treatment if convicted.

“I have an anger problem and always fought behind my anger,” McDade wrote. “I NEED HELP PLEASE SIR. I have a mental problem.”

But McDade was in far deeper trouble than she knew. Around the time she wrote the letter, a federal grand jury indicted her on serious gun charges from the arrest.

She got 10 years in prison and was transferred far from home, to the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, New York.

Last week, McDade, 38, was shot and killed by a Tallahassee police officer after allegedly stabbing to death Malik Jackson, 21, the son of a next-door neighbor. The stabbing came only hours after a group of men brutally attacked McDade in an incident caught on cell phone video.

...

McDade wrestled with gender identity. Over the past year or two, McDade began transitioning to a man.

“When she started the transition, she wanted to be known as Tony,” Roberson said. “When you hear people who say ‘she,’ those are people who have been in Tosha’s life for a very long time, and that’s how we identify Tosha. And when youhearpeople who say ‘he,’ those are the ones ... who also identify Tosha as male.”

...

It's unclear how important names and pronouns were to McDade. Witnesses in the most recent arrest used the name Latosha, and McDade had a number of aliases including "Kiti," according to court records. McDade used both Tony and Natosha in the Facebook video.


People with agendas like to reduce this to childishly simplistic narratives about transphobia.

However violent men would have identified McDade as female and a lesbian. Having the stature, muscle, bone density, etc., of a woman would do that.

It's possible that McDade was victimised as a perceived lesbian.

It's likely that McDade was victimised as a vulnerable woman with mental health problems.

It's certain that involvement with drugs and guns, and living in a housing project surrounded by criminals would have made McDade's prospects as a black person worse, than say a middle class black person living in a nice suburb.

It's a very simplistic narrative to say 'black trans lives matter'. This is a 'black lives matter' story in that this is a black person living among crime, involved with crime, and killed by the police after committing a homicide. The overarching story arc is tragic. But those who want to reduce it to 'transphobia' are idiots.

The story continues:

On Tuesday, after events that remain unclear, a group of men brutally beat McDade in an incident partially captured on cell phone video.

Later that day, McDade went live on Facebook, venting deep pain and anguish and vowing revenge on the attackers and a confrontation with police.

“It’s just Tony the Tiger all alone coming for your blood,” McDade said. "I am killing and going to be killed, because I will not go back into federal prison."

By Wednesday afternoon, McDade was dead, along with a next-door neighbor’s son, Malik Jackson, who was reportedly involved in the beating. McDade stabbed Jackson around 10:45 a.m., police said, before going on the run, making it as far as housing complexes on Holton Street.

Justhadathought · 08/06/2020 11:14

I'm not black, so it would be interesting to understand whether black women think the BLM movement is about them too. Or is it primarily about the men? Are the interests/particular concerns of black men prioritised over those of black women. I suspect they are.

Smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 08/06/2020 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NekoShiro · 08/06/2020 11:28

I was posting more about the statistics than who died, also you post that he argued that he was only set up with a gun, during a drug deal gone bad, I'm wondering if maybe the climate of being black in America is what made him feel like he needed to get into that lifestyle of drugs and robbing people, he clearly stated that he had mental issues and needed help, but I'm not arguing for or against, I wasn't there and I don't know their life,

"I am killing and going to be killed, because I will not go back into federal prison."

Could you imagine what lows in life you'd have to hit, to get 'brutally beat' and instead of feeling like you could safely go to the police for help you have to take the matter into your own hands,

Also he stabbed the guy to death, if he had a gun, why didn't he just shoot him? But like I said, I wasn't there, maybe just because a knife is more personal.

Wow all that information you posted makes me feel worse for him, what a life to live, sent to jail for something you might not of even done, I know someone who beat up a pedo, but when it came to court there was no proof that the guy was a pedo (he had been caught by the mum after he'd asked her to go make him a cup of tea and snack in her kitchen, she came back to her baby girl naked and a camera phone in his hand focused on the baby) but her word wasn't enough proof when my friend had gone over under the guise of a drug deal, so proving drug charges and 'drug deal gone bad' was easier for the courts to process.

So it seems like a transmen was at the end of his ropes and decided to commit suicide by firing squad after taking some revenge for himself, awful situation, I hope from this more mental support is given to young people, maybe if he felt like he could reach out after being brutally beat for living his own life how he wanted he wouldn't of turned to murder suicide.