Is BLM a trojan horse?

[Thingybob]

Am I the only one feeling uneasy about the BLM movement?

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise)

blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Discrimination will most likely always happen, in my view, where there is difference

The issue of difference is something that the trans agenda has brought to the fore for me. Women are different to men, as well as the same as men in the fact of being human. Difference does not have to mean of less value, though. Many equality arguments tend to on one hand deny difference, but then on the other hand promote difference.
It's a tricky one. this is where inter-sectionalist identity politics gets us all.

First of all the link is to any american web site. And although the claim is that they are the founders (owners) of the Black Lives Matter movement is no more true that the groups that called itself "The Women's March" owned feminist response to the election of Trump.

Black Lives Matter is an many ways a truely organic grassroots movement. And as such has a range of politics within its overarching aim of challenging not just institutional racism but racism inherent in the upbringing of white people in western culture (and history).

So for istance the group that says it is Black Lives Matter UK issued a statement saying they did not support public demonstrations because of the coronavirus. And is response another group formed that was instrumental, if not in organising, in sharing information about demonstrations being organised.

There is no overarching politics that you can say is part of the BLM movement. But within groups organising in support of it, it is inevitable that like minded individuals would work together. Just because one group adheres to the TWAW doesn't mean it is accepted by all who are campaigning. So for instance in one of the public demonstrations there was in fact homophibic abuse shouted at gay men.

In the same way as feminists dont have to accept the type of feminism that the liberal media tries to tell us is what feminism is, anyone who is committed to the campaign of Black Lives Matter can organise on shared politics.

I think the danger at the moment is that parts of the left are trying to co-opt in into being part of their politics.

So one of the things that was noticeable at the public demonstrations was the complete absence - which must be a first - of preprinted SWP placards which is the first sign that a movement is doomed.

There is nothing to stop gender critical feminists organising in support of Black Lives Matter. And certainly on facebook there is a strong push to make sure that Black Women who have been killed by the police are not forgotten. Google "Say Her Name".

Just a plea really, just because there is a web page or a twitter acount claiming that it is THE (insert any name) campaign doesn't make it true.

But yes as a quite young movement, as opposed to say Campaign Against Racism, it is likely it will have young people in who have been through the university system that is nearly always pumping out the trans agenda.

Perhaps more useful to have a thread about how women, as feminists, mothers, daughters, educators and everything else, can challenge themselves and those around them.

White men have all sorts of different colours of hair and eyes, but I am not aware of any substantial oppression on the basis of that. It's the combination of difference with a power disparity that allows for discrimination. You can't oppress someone who is genuinely equal to you.

‘The western concept of the nuclear family will be rejected and replaced by a communal type 'village'’

What is wrong with this? This has been discussed by feminists forever. This kind of argument is why the U.K. has a welfare state.

It would alleviate a great deal of racism and sexism in the US if people had decent healthcare, child benefits and welfare support systems.

It isnt silencing. It is stating that human rights are important and that denying that huge sectors of our society are discriminated against on the basis of the colour if their skin is not acceptable. Any more than it is acceptable to have sex discrimination. It has to be seen in the same terms

I am not sure if people say things like this because they are naive or what.
There is a huge amount of legitimate discussion over questions like, what is a human right and how do they operate in society. What are the mechanisms that transfer ideas like racism or sexism? Where does the idea of race come from in the first place, and what is the way to combat it?
There is also important real discussion about emperical questions. What are the immediate causes of police violence? What are the differences between police forces that have problems and those that don't? Who is being affected by police violence and what happens when we look at different data sets?
These conversations are being silenced, people who ask questions about one particular theory of race. You yourself have equated antiracism wholly with one theoretical approach to it, as if there are no others.

[quote Porpoises]@NonnyMouse1337 that's an interesting article. Not sure what to think.[/quote]
Yes, I'm still in the very early stages of trying to understand it all. It would be great if there was more open dialogue between those who are pro-CRT versus those who are skeptical or critical about it.

@Goosefoot do you know names of alternatives to Critical Race Theory that still aim to combat racism? I'd be interested to read about some of them.

A human rights approach is the most common international way of tackling racism (and sexism).

Thank you for your informative post stumbledin

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings
The statement " if black women are women then transwomen must be women too" has nothing to do with the esoterically racist reasoning you've inferred. It's asserting that both black and trans are adjectives which can be used to describe women without in anyway diminishing their womanhood or the womanhood of women who aren't described by those adjectives IE: White or Cis women

Is it a Trojan Horse for what? Equality? Equal rights? Yes, yes it is

NottinghamWicca
TRAs invariably use the black woman comparison, they rarely say eg "ginger women are women same as trans women"
Their example is virtually always black women.

KKK types used to (and possibly still do) say that back women were not women, or not proper women. That black women were more like men etc.
Trans activists constantly use this example to compare it to saying transwomen aren't women.

It has everything to do with racism, AND everything to do with what you said about adjectives, "cis" etc.

Am I the only one feeling uneasy about the BLM movement?

I have become uneasy too. Mainly because according to the US statistics more black people are killed by black people than by police or white people. GF brutal killing was horrible and despicable and glad the police involved are now charged for murder. However, we can”t not blame all the police force because there are statistics and they show this not the worst problem for black people.

Apologies to anyone I've offended by voicing my concerns and if you feel the title of this thread is inappropriate then I will ask for it to be ammended.

Apologies for being a bit aggressive in my response OP! Just the wording put my back up as it seemed dismissive of the genuine concerns of the activists.

It's an interesting thread, it's really good to discuss the underlying theories/ideologies more deeply - while recognising as a PP said that it's quite a spontaneous, decentralised movement that will encompass a range of views within it.

@Goosefoot do you know names of alternatives to Critical Race Theory that still aim to combat racism? I'd be interested to read about some of them.

I always suggest Cornel West or Adolph Reed.

A rather long interview with Reed on a lot of related questions:

This is a West article on Coates, the latter is one of the major representatives of CRT and the BLM perspective - so I think it doesn't do a bad job giving a sense of West's thinking overall on this topic:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/17/ta-nehisi-coates-neoliberal-black-struggle-cornel-west

Thanks @goosefoot I'll have a read when I have a moment.

A human rights approach is the most common international way of tackling racism (and sexism).

Possibly, but you aware that it is a theoretical system, and one where there is real disagreement and discussion about what it means, how it works, how it should be used?
And that there is even a serious academic argument about whether it's an effective approach at all or justified conceptually?
That doesn't mean people who have these ideas are bigots.

Yes Nottingham I've seen it used that way as well. But I have also specifically seen it used to draw parallels around masculinity. I've seen women pointing at non transitioning TW saying "they obviously aren't women", usually in response to someone suggesting we can't be sure unless we've checked their genitals. And I've seen on numerous occasions TRAs reply saying "people used to say that black women weren't women because they didn't meet white beauty standards as well" as if it's the same, as if there's any similarity at all between a racist saying that black women look like men, and women saying that actual men look like men. I've also seen TRAs claim that women being concerned about girls transitioning to be transmen is motivated by racism, because we want to preserve their "whiteness" and if they change to look masculine then they'll look too black. I'm not sure what conclusion I can draw from this other than that some TRAs really can't see a difference between being black and looking like a man.

So glad someone has started this thread. I am black and spent a long time yesterday trying to explain to a friend why I have never supported BLM. Their leadership, funding, strong-arm tactics, demands, and policies have never sat well with me. The white men funding this movement have sneaked the trans agenda into the movement using the phrase BLM. Very clever. It makes me feel physically ill every time I see it, how the struggles of black people are being used by these cynical bastards.

I had to sit through a meeting about employment rights for black people yesterday with a black American civil rights lawyer who claimed his best work has been his campaign for the erosion of women's rights to single-sex spaces and freedom of association (what he calls "trans rights"), comparing it without any irony to the black civil rights movement of the 1960s. The other women in the meeting appeared to agree, if the fiercely nodding heads were anything to go by.

I really wonder how he will feel when his daughters have to compete in sports against boys who claim to be girls. How would he feel if his sister ended up in a prison cell with a man pretending to be a woman? We blacks have become pawns of a movement many of us oppose. Shudder.

Bloody hell, people!

No, BLM is not a trojan horse!

It IS a social justice movement and as such fits into the larger puzzle of the general landscape of cutlrrent thought on social progression / "justice". That's hardly surprising.

But what on earth has happened to intelligent people being able to form differentiates opinions? The world isn't a question of black and white but mostly a complez and occasionally very confusing array of different shades of grey.

"You're either with us or against us" is, quite literally, how GWB and Blair sold that very questionable Iraq War to us, with a shameful amount of success, when any halfway intelligent person could see that a) yes, Saddam was a despot but also b) no, he arguably had nothing at all to do with 9/11.

I for one happen to think that a) BLM is, overwhelmingly albeit never exclusively, a goid and necessary thing, that b) yes, ideological cross-overs, including with some TWAW types, are inevitable and also c) as intelligent adults we are capable of forming and defending differentiated view points.

This is not the Lidl Ideology 3-for-1 discount (limited time only).

I get really worried when people develop issue-specific tunnel vision to an extent that they start to simplify.

I, for one, want to both see true equality for black people and support movements to this effect AND to be able to go for a bloody bra fitting without Harriet, formerly known as George, getting a stiffie whilst assessing my cup size.

It's not rocket science!

... also: sorry for the typos. Sausage fingers. Phone.

Racism certainly exists in the uk, not just for black people either but also Asian, Middle East, Indian sub-continent, North Africa, etc
but the problems and solutions are different to America and I think there is a very confusing blurring here with these protests which won’t address the issues in the UK.

The non-British-ethnicity British are pretty recent arrivals compared to African-Americans. The BAME population of the UK up until the second world War was very small and a lot have arrived in the last generation. Schools are not funded just by their local areas and the poorest performing schools are not those with high BAME populations but white working class seaside towns. Talking about the destruction of ’western’ culture and history would go very badly here because it is the indigenous culture you are talking about, not just a white culture.

White men have all sorts of different colours of hair and eyes, but I am not aware of any substantial oppression on the basis of that

Well, that's just naive in my view. White people, including white men, of course, just like black people come from many different cultures, class & social backgrounds - and they are not all privileged at all.

Such reductionist statements as Male Privilege or White Privilege don't help at all in my view. They ignore differences of circumstance and culture between people within each category, and simply generates blanket 'victimhood' upon whole groups of people, and blanket 'oppressor' status on others. Inevitably leads to backlash and division.