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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling threatening legal action

772 replies

TheLashKingOfScotland · 29/05/2020 16:52

A TRA and Canadian Green Party rep has made libellous comments about JK regarding her position on trans rights and her suitability to be trusted around children.
JK asked her to retract them or they would hear from JK's lawyers. Currently they are digging in. Seemingly unaware that JK has pursued legal cases based on Twitter comments before and that it isn't acceptable to make unfounded statements about people.
It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
It could have wider reaching consequences if certain sectors see they can't just make unfounded accusations any more.

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TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/06/2020 10:48

It probably says something about how lefty my upbringing is that I was going "so this pig is Trotsky?" at the rather tender age at which I first read Animal Farm. Just throwing that out there for all the "everyone on FWR is in the employ of American right wingers" brigade on Twitter,

I love 1984 and think the bleakness of the prose was a stylistic choice meant to get the reader into the headspace of Winston, but I agree that it can make for harsh reading. Orwell's essays are worth a read too.

TheHoneyBadger · 04/06/2020 10:57

@BlueBooby

See to me Animal Farm’s lasting message is power corrupts (and humans are generally shit and will always create unfair systems). It’s a warning about idealism and thinks that sound simple and wonderful. You always have to remember base human nature will show it’s face.

My interpretation was not that power corrupts, but that the people (or pigs) who seek power, are more likely to be corrupt. I thought the intention of being in command of the other animals was there very early on (at least in one of the pigs I think it was, I can't remember the story exactly). I suppose it's a bit like the chicken and egg thing but with power.

But you can’t separate the two (power and people seeking power). I can’t remember what/who/which school of thought I was reading at uni that criticised any theory that ignored power (which would cover neoliberalism pretty well but also theories around how to’s of egalitarian systems).

Power is always an issue. It’s like talking about agency and crap like meritocracy is a nonsense without acknowledging power but so too is talking of egalitarian utopias without addressing the realities of power rather than just pretending it can be avoided

Bananabixfloof · 04/06/2020 11:03

Honestly I read some of the replies and realise I am thick as two short planks. I have to read over and over to understand whatever is being said.
And of course you are all so damn clever. Damn you all. 'Shakes fist at the unfairness'

ProfessorSlocombe · 04/06/2020 11:06

And of course you are all so damn clever.

I'd rather be kind than clever.

Aesopfable · 04/06/2020 11:11

Expecting women to be kind, telling other women to be kind, teaching girls to kind is what got us in this mess.

Aesopfable · 04/06/2020 11:12

It is OK for women to be clever.

TheHoneyBadger · 04/06/2020 11:13

I’m sure you’re not thick banana. This thread has made me realise how long it’s been since I had really decent conversation. It’s nice to be able to discuss differences in perception or understanding without it descending into emotive hyperbole and lazy polemics.

It does take more mental energy but not cleverness as such. Just exercising a muscle that doesn’t get used much in my case lol

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/06/2020 11:14

Some of us care about being kind to other women. Shockingly unfeminine of us, I know.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 04/06/2020 11:15

@Bananabixfloof

Honestly I read some of the replies and realise I am thick as two short planks. I have to read over and over to understand whatever is being said. And of course you are all so damn clever. Damn you all. 'Shakes fist at the unfairness'
I’m with you mate

We should sit in a corner and make random comments...which is pretty much my forte on here

I was told at a governors meeting that i was there for light relief....and they meant it as a compliment

AwrightDoreenTakeAFuckinDayOff · 04/06/2020 11:16

I’d rather have my rights than be kind.

ProfessorSlocombe · 04/06/2020 11:18

Expecting women to be kind, telling other women to be kind, teaching girls to kind is what got us in this mess.

That said, I'd like to be clever enough to respond to whatabouttery ... .

I wasn't speaking for anyone else but myself - made clear (I thought) by using the personal pronoun "I".

Nothing wrong with being clever. We need clever people. It's just at my age of life, clever people are the least happy, and kind people are the most happy.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/06/2020 11:20

Not sure why clever and kind is apparently not an option (or indeed not clever and not kind, which is a combination very well represented among the TRAs who post on this forum).

ProfessorSlocombe · 04/06/2020 11:22

Not sure why clever and kind is apparently not an option

Just seems a bit greedy, that's all Smile

Bananabixfloof · 04/06/2020 11:26

@Aesopfable

It is OK for women to be clever.
I wish I was as clever as some of yous lot. Sadly it's not meant to be and i should just sit in the corner with rufus. We will have a grand old time wont we rufus?
Deliriumoftheendless · 04/06/2020 11:30

I think fairness is more important than kindness.

AwrightDoreenTakeAFuckinDayOff · 04/06/2020 11:30

I am kind to most people. I can’t be arsed with being kind to, or about, anyone who wants to trample over my rights so they can have theirs.

I could never be truly happy knowing I had no rights even if I was the kindest person on Earth.

At my age I’ve come across clever and kind people. And various combinations thereof.

Aesopfable · 04/06/2020 11:30

Who are you being kind to though? In the context of this thread? MRA who are upset that JKR is not being kind to them and giving into their demands, or JKR? You can't chose both.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/06/2020 11:35

What about the children whose happy interact with your favorite author thread is being spoiled by angry TRAs trying to take it over?

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 04/06/2020 12:46

We will have a grand old time wont we rufus?

Absolutely

And sometimes we will say something that sounds very profound but isnt really and then we will sit there quite happy with ourselves

Didactylos · 04/06/2020 12:51

How charmingly Victorian of you ProfessorSlocombe, and nearly a direct quote of the clergyman Charles Kingsley!
“Be good, sweet maid, and let who will be clever"

which of course was just another appeal to women to know their apparent place as support humans, and never think they can move out of that role

What is wrong with female human beings, women and girls being considered just as human beings, equally capable of intellect and opinion, and equally deserving of respect as men?

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 04/06/2020 14:16

I also don't know why it has to be Clever OR Kind. Nothing clever about being unkind, and nothing kind about being stupid. Sometimes it is stupid to BE kind, when you're busy handing over all your rights and safety and security, rather than standing up for them and being at risk of being told "you're not being kind"; but in general most people are able to be both clever AND kind without too much difficulty.

I would always take clever over kind if it was a mutually exclusive choice though. Not being kind is not automatically the same as being unkind - there is a middle ground, where one is neither.

On the subject of the books - Animal Farm really upset me - yes, the Boxer incident primarily, but most of it. I came from a very political family, so could see some of the allegory, but not all of it (read it at 12, at school).
Lord of the Flies really upset me too - another school book - and although I too have read the article about the boys who were stranded for months without anything like this happening, I believe culture has a lot to do with how that panned out. Read Tom Brown's Schooldays to see how the power hierarchy among boys at public school played out and it's not that much of a jump to believe that Lord of the Flies was possible!

I missed ANY sexual subtext in the Harry Potter books, apart from between the teenagers. And I don't see why Harry or the others should have had any idea about their teachers' sexuality at all - in general, teens have a distinct revulsion to the idea that teachers or other adults they know even "do it" still! I went to senior school in the 1980s and I was very unaware that our headteacher was gay, and having an affair with one of the other teachers, until I was explicitly told about it. I'm quite slow with things like that though, and worse with books. Grin

I'm trying to remember if I ever actually read 1984 or not. I think I did (or maybe I only saw the film), but apart from the cage of rats in Room 101, and the tv that kept an eye on you (Big Brother of course) I don't remember much of it - it didn't stay with me in the same way that Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies did. And I still haven't read Brave New World. I know what 1984 is about, of course - so much of it has made it into our social culture that it would be difficult to know absolutely nothing about it.

Regarding ideologies - I think the worst aspect about ANY of them is the evangelical believers who insist that THEIR WAY IS RIGHT and no other, and that all others must bow to THEIR WAY. And that's the problem with the TRAs. I agree that there are problems on both the Left and the Right of the political spectrum, largely when they swing too far and become too ideological and with no room for compromise.
AN evangelical ideologist is my worst nightmare - you can't sway them from their fanaticism, they will resort to any level of argument to try and persuade you that Their Way is the only right and true one, and will tie themselves in literal knots to do that - and then get angry when you use logic and reason to show them that there actually are other ways that are equally valid (and sometimes more so).

But when it comes to anyone trying to say that "Biological sex is a made up social construct" and pushing that onto everyone, enough is enough. Biology is science. Gender is a made up social construct that has been harming everyone for EVER. Remove gender stereotypes entirely - it's the only way forwards.

Datun · 04/06/2020 14:21

There is nothing kind about giving away girls' rights. It's the opposite.

Goosefoot · 04/06/2020 14:23

This is the part of your remarks I was addressing.

It's not necessary to have political power in government to pursue concrete aims. In fact the left used to be very good at that sort of thing.

Goosefoot · 04/06/2020 14:27

I'm not sure why being kind would be lumped in with being a push-over. The kindest people I've ever met were very far from push-overs. In fact I would say their kindness came out of a very strong sense of their own place.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 04/06/2020 14:30

Goosefoot - it's a reaction to the #Bekind thing on Twitter and Facebook etc.