Owen Jones on Twitter today

[Bouledeneige]

twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1260134887165739009?s=21

A tweet that middle class people should pay their cleaner to not work quickly descended into 'rich women paying poor women to clean their homes.' So frustrating the casual sexism. Why is it assumed women are responsible for cleaning their homes and not men. Most working women who can afford a cleaner do so because they have 3 jobs - their work, their childcare and their household. Why aren't the men they are married to taking more household responsibility?

That was terrible r.e. Julie Bindel and women in prison. That said, JB's take on Karen being a slur is a joke.

I have in the past raised points about passing chores on to poorer women.

I still think Owen Jones is a troll who targets feminists.

The piece in the Guardian about the cleaner having to put herself at risk by travelling across London on public transport, when she could be furloughed instead. That very much changes the balance of the cleaner doing that work vs a family making arrangements to clean for themselves.

I think this also applies to many other people being sent back to work on public transport for non essential tasks.

I still think Owen Jones picked up on this issue because he likes to bash women.

JB's take on Karen being a slur is a joke

it depends who is using the name and in what context. Regardless of its origins, it is often used on twitter to silence women.

If memory serves I think JB said Karen is woman hating and based on class prejudice. What she fails to account for in that interpretation is the erasure of black and women of colour / minority women with regards to the various types of aggression that whiteness has the propensity to commit. That it is co-opted by (men?) to silence women is separate to the actual point of referring to a certain type of woman as a Karen. As a WOC I have come across so many Karens in my time.

The solution to the Karen issue is for black Americans to be allowed one thing white British people don't then attempt to copy.

I think she has deleted her twitter account, but from what I remember she wasn't aware of the US use or connotations of 'Karen' and 'Becky'. Names don't translate well across countries.

“That said, JB's take on Karen being a slur is a joke.”

No it’s not. All I’ve seen is white men and angsty white youngsters using it to have a go at older white women - basically their wives, mums and grans. that Karen was started by black people as an in group think is something i was completely unaware of. Why are women still getting shit thrown at them for being insulted by white men and kids who appropriated a term started by black people

That white men and teens are using Karen as (another) tool of misogyny does not detract that there is a certain type of entitled white woman who really goes out of her way sometimes intentionally sometimes accidentally to make life absolutely unnecessarily difficult for black and WOC. I still to this day don't really consider feminism as part of my identity because of the sheer amount of Karens I have come across along the way whose identities are centred around feminism but have apparently zero regard for women unlike themselves.

does not detract that there is a certain type of entitled white woman who really goes out of her way sometimes intentionally sometimes accidentally to make life absolutely unnecessarily difficult for black and WOC.

No, but this is the top definition in urban dictionary

“ Karen
gives raisins to kids on Halloween

drives an SUV to carpool her kids to soccer practice... better hope the ref doesn’t make a wrong call because she will sue!

love to use snapagram to post her workout selfies

after a long day of talking to managers and driving her kids around she sits down with her mom friends at book club and drinks lots and LOTS of wine
“oh my god Karen do you really have to talk to the Burger King manager every time they forget to give you a ketchup packet.“

“LOL! Yes!! I have to Facebook and instasnap it to all my friends to make sure everyone knows to watch out LOL!!!”
##karen #soccermom #probablyaboomer”

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen

If Women of colour are mentioned on urban dictionary, it isn't on the first page.

Even in the US, many people apparently now use it to mean 'woman whose opinions have no value'. It seems to be synonymous with basic bitch and soccer mom.

The urban dictionary definition is linked in this Guardian article on social distance shaming. Race is not mentioned, a 'Karen' is just somebody who wants to speak to the manager. The message is clear - don't complain, you wouldn't want to be a Karen.

I'm not apologising to anyone, of any race and either sex, for not accepting being dismissed with a shitty misogynistic meme just for being a woman standing up for my rights and being assertive. Hope that helps.

VladmirsPoutine

By this token do people have strong views on boarding school too?

Not sure what your point is. I would not personally have sent my son to boarding school. His school had boarders and it's really none of my business what other parents choose to do.

Your defence of the Karen meme is pretty appalling.

I'm not apologising to anyone, of any race and either sex, for not accepting being dismissed with a shitty misogynistic meme just for being a woman standing up for my rights and being assertive. Hope that helps.

I'm not either.

it's really none of my business what other parents choose to do.

I said as much upthread if you'd read my response to Flo.

Your defence of the Karen meme is pretty appalling.

Thanks. I think it's great to finally have a catch-all term that describes a particular type of person. I've been on Mumsnet for ages and putting aside the Karen meme even discussions on race here are always wayward so I don't expect anything less but to be shouted down about the Karen thing or any race-related issue. I tend to just stick to the MIL threads but occasionally get drawn in then remember why I don't get drawn in etc etc

Power to the KARENS!!!

We shall not apologise!

Lovely!

Vlad Could you describe the type of person who should be called a Karen?

What are the characteristics of a Karen?

I am curious that you seem to direct your anger at women who object to the way 'karen' is now used in the UK, rather than at the white British males who appropriated it in the first place?

We shall not apologise!

I'm not making a complaint, I am expressing an opinion: 'Karen' has not just been appropriated by a few white men. Most people using it as an insult on the internet don't seem to be using it in its original context.

This isn't a problem without consequences because its really important that girls are taught that they can complain, that they can stick up for their rights.

I think it was originally used to refer to women like this:

www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/white-woman-caught-video-calling-black-women-n-word-said-n1034746

However, that is not how it is now commonly used in the UK. In the UK any of the women could be classified as 'Karens'.

Flo, this isn't something I can really get angry about. It's better to be pragmatic and aware than it is to be angry. But to your point - that white men have hijacked the term isn't really my problem or my fault to fix. That's the thing with misogynistic men - they're going to be misogynistic with or without Karen. AFAIK Karen was/is used appropriately in the articles and pieces I have read, and at that, before 'Karen' became a meme the persona it describes is not a new phenomena. I don't need an apology from anyone, nor have I asked for one - honestly on MN I really try and stick to the MiL and general chit chat threads because anything race-related does not register. It's just how it is. I wouldn't join a forum for vegans then expect them to understand the brilliance of a bacon sandwich.

AFAIK Karen was/is used appropriately in the articles and pieces I have read

No it wasn't used "appropriately". It was used to create a negative stereotype. Appropriating a real name and turning that into a character to be mocked and ridiculed was not "appropriate"

Misogyny and ageism are never "appropriate".

This isn't a problem without consequences because its really important that girls are taught that they can complain, that they can stick up for their rights.

This. That's why this meme is used so much by men against women who do stand up for themselves, because men find it threatening to their interests.

Yep! Just telling women to shut up wasn't working so some have moved on to trying to shame us into silence.

As I said I didn't expect MN esp this board to consider Karen (or even the persona it describes) to be anything other than the most abhorrent reprehensible term to silence, mock and ridicule women. I already thought as much hence why I stay away from these types of discussions on here. Only occasionally browse but rarely jump in as much as I used to.