Owen Jones on Twitter today

[Bouledeneige]

twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1260134887165739009?s=21

A tweet that middle class people should pay their cleaner to not work quickly descended into 'rich women paying poor women to clean their homes.' So frustrating the casual sexism. Why is it assumed women are responsible for cleaning their homes and not men. Most working women who can afford a cleaner do so because they have 3 jobs - their work, their childcare and their household. Why aren't the men they are married to taking more household responsibility?

Of course I don't think people should be paying cleaners to come to their houses to work for them at the moment. Though its not that straightforward. My Adad is 90 and lives alone and would love his communal housing development to let the staff back. He cannot change his sheets on his own and struggles with cleaning.

Can I just check then whether those people who disapprove of paying cleaners to keep your house clean also disapprove of paying people to look after their children? I cant see the moral difference. And I think its a really important point for working women.

And on a less meaningful level - to walk their dogs, clean their cars, do their gardening, cut their hair, do their nails etc? Is that all insulting too?

Do we force cleaners to come to professional middle class houses in the middle of a pandemic, that has already killed many cleaners because this is a feminist issue?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Nobody has the right to 'summon a cleaner' unless there is an existing contractual obligation which SD doesn't have.

Many people are being asked to return to work under potentially unsafe conditions, regardless of whether they work for 'middle class professionals'. Isn't the relevant question "is this safe?" not "where do I stand vis-a-vis my client on the social hierarchy?"

The feminist issue is that cleaning is singled out as a job that is somehow intrinsically less professional than other jobs because it is usually performed by women, and that it is a luxury service that no woman could possibly need because women always have ample time and ability to clean their own homes.

I have never had a cleaner so don't know whether it could be done safely, but I don't think choosing to buy cleaning services is more or less moral than choosing to to spend money on getting my house decorated, which is also allowed under new guidance.

Whether or not cleaners are paid fairly and have adequate employment rights is another question, but not one that will be addressed by implying that there is something morally suspect about buying cleaning services.

Whether or not cleaners are paid fairly and have adequate employment rights is another question, but not one that will be addressed by implying that there is something morally suspect about buying cleaning services

I'm amused by the outrage Owen Jones' thread has caused. I've seen so many posts on here in the pasts by feminists criticising the employment of cleaners or nannies.

I've seen so many posts on here in the pasts by feminists criticising the employment of cleaners or nannies. Really???

The piece by Raquel Rosario Sanchez is indeed superb, Empress. I do hope the fuckwits who whine on about "white feminism" (most of whom, as she points out, are white themselves) read it. And then read it again, and keep on reading it until they've understood it.

I've seen so many posts by people posting on Feminism chat that could more accurately be described as ''conformation bias'' than ''views expressed by feminists''.

Owen Jones is such a has been. I wouldn't bother to read his rambling crap.

I've seen so many posts on here in the pasts by feminists criticising the employment of cleaners or nannies.Really???

Yes really. Usually a load of nonsense about outsourcing "wife work" on to poorer women. The hypocrisy on this thread is quite amusing- how dare Owen Jones or his supporters say this when in the past it has been a view plenty of posters on here went along with.

For me it was about a lot more than that. No intention of repeating my posts all over again but the points for me were:
OJ's assumption that we all have more free time in lockdown;
the invisible workload of raising a family;
whether teaching your children essential household skills is for the benefit of parents or children;
whether childhood memories of doing housework are quite what they seem.

That's a fantastic piece by RRS, Empress. I've bookmarked it and will forward it to everyone who's inclined to argue that we're beyond sex. It's obvious that transgender ideology is misogynistic and homophobic and now I see how racist it is as well. Thank you.

Usually a load of nonsense about outsourcing "wife work" on to poorer women.

By this token do people have strong views on boarding school too?

Cheers Shedbuilder, I’m glad you like it!

Dido are you saying there are posters on this thread criticising Owen for views they themselves, as individuals, have previously espoused?

Yes really. Usually a load of nonsense about outsourcing "wife work" on to poorer women.

I'm sure these posts exist, but I think they are outnumbered by people who argue there is too much judgement about how women spend their money and free time.

By this token do people have strong views on boarding school too?

You can easily find threads on MN looking for tips on the best way to get into Eton and threads arguing that all private schools should be abolished. Unsurprisingly people who post on a parenting website have a variety of views.

My view on boarding school is that a. whether it makes sense will probably depend on the circumstances of the individual family but b. it's really none of my business.

Ash Sarkar attempted to draw a link on Twitter with boarding schools. From what I saw, most people seemed to think it was pretty risible.

I'm not even sure what someone would be getting at there. Is it another a woman is outsourcing what's meant to be her job how dare she thing?

Floisme Do you mean this:

"I think we're about 3 outrage cycles away from people arguing that private boarding schools are feminist because they liberate women from raising their own children."

It appeared to be tongue-in-cheek in my view.

Yes that was what I saw. I have no insight into whether Sarkar was being playful but, seeing that most of us already outsource out children's education (to teachers) it seemed like a piss poor analogy to me, whether satire or not.

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I follow Ash on Twitter and given her POV I can't see that she would have meant that tweet literally. She wrote another thread recently about her mother and how she grew up which was subtweeted by Hadley Freeman and Janice Turner among others. I really don't know why she bothers sometimes; she gets a lot of abuse.

So what made your raise boarding schools on here?

Because I agreed with the notion that "outsourcing wifework" is nonsense. Therefore if parents decide to send their kids to boarding school it is their decision. It's more that I think women can never really win - whatever choices they make someone somewhere is waiting in the wings to pop out with criticism of some sort .

I really don't know why she bothers sometimes; she gets a lot of abuse.

Nobody deserves abuse, but if she bothered to do some research, e.g. went beyond twitter before pronouncing on Julie Bindel, she might receive less criticism.