Julie Bindel on twitter

[Anonymouswasawoman]

Did her account get deleted?
twitter.com/bindelj/
Twitter is telling me it doesn't exist

There are many strands of feminist thought, however I think if it actively excludes a huge group of women for the crime of being right-wing then it isn't feminism, it's (im)purity politics and I say that as an old-fashioned left-winger. I may think your political beliefs are a load of bollocks, you're perfectly free to think the same about mine, I'm not particularly free speech, more STFU wazzock, but if feminism's central driving force isn't women first and ALL women and ONLY women, then it's nothing.

(Sceptical face wasn’t to Amalfi, we cross posted.)

I’d say though that feminism is political - everything that impacts our lives is political. However it goes far above and beyond party politics and whilst those with political ambition have to work within that structure, many of us have seen how rubbish all parties have been for women.

It’s a shame so many feminists have turned away from Posie because she is a brilliant media performer.

No doubt there will be some feminists who publicly totally distance themselves from Posie whilst secretly feeling grateful for the way she has shone a very bright light garnering wide media exposure.

I can understand this cognitive dissonance must feel unpleasant.

@DrLouiseJMoody

I can't see your tweets. Is that because you have locked down your account or am I blocked for some reason?

I love JCJ, so smart, erudite and funny, although it worries me when she exposes vulnerabilities in a public domain
I agree. A lot of readers had no idea what was going on behind the scenes and tbh this long thread did not really help clear things up for me.

Basically this comes down to two tribes.

Some GCs want to be able to freely misgender TW in public.

Other GCs know they won’t get anywhere near the mainstream media or keep their jobs if they openly misgender people.

There is wider important context for women being able to identify male-pattern abusive behaviours which pre-dates discussion about gender identities.

In her 2017 speech Dr Julia Long ( researcher for the femicide census) talks of the importance of naming male violence within the context of feminist theory & history.

(extract)
"So why then is it important to make this distinction between sex and gender and why is it important to name men as men? Naming men as man was such a vital part of the women's liberation movement and feminist scholarship back in those early days. There were lots of books that had 'silence' in the title or essays that had 'silence' in the title because it was about women breaking the silences of our own lives and naming who was doing what to whom, and then seeing that there were patterns of this and that is how feminist theory emerged. So it's really crucial to name men as men because that is how we develop an understanding and an analysis of patriarchy. That's how. If we can't name men as men then we can't name patterns of male violence, we can't name who is in control.

So naming men as men, then, enables us to answer these kinds of questions: Who controls economic, social, political and cultural systems and institutions? In whose hands does this kind of economic and social and political power lay? Well, if we can name men as men then we can see exactly where it lies. And it also helps us to answer the question, who's doing what to whom? And so again, over decades, feminists have answered that question in terms of looking at what we know women are subjected to under patriarchal power relations between women and men: femicide, female infanticide, sex-selective abortion, female genital mutilation, rape, sexual assault, domestic violence, poverty, economic disadvantage, prostitution, pornography, discrimination, objectification - I'm thinking here in addition to all the sex industry, but just the normalised objectification of high heels and make up and cosmetic surgery and all of this stuff - illiteracy - hugely more of the world's poor and illiterate are women rather than men - denial of reproductive rights, exploitation of reproductive and domestic labour ... I mean that was just a kind of quick list off the top of my head. Also, historically we can think about foot-binding, and I think we need to think about things like chest binding in relation to these factors, and also of course, witch-burning, and we've got a nice little example [referring to protesters outside chanting 'burn it down']... fortunately, touch wood, they haven't gone quite that far yet, but in terms of 'kill all TERFs' I think there is certainly echoes of former persecution of women, in terms of the current ... oh, it's gone a bit quiet there ... in terms of the current persecution by our friends outside." (continues)

transcription by pencilsinspace pastebin.com/nGwr3i4U

**copywrite permissions available

Thank you R0wantrees, Dr Julia Long and, of course, pencilsinspace.

I hate that makey-uppy word, misgendering.

Having followed a few Twitter trails today, I can see now that this is not only about political leanings and tribes but that there are also personal loyalties, friendships, allegations, anger and hurt in the mix too, none of which helps with finding a resolution but does help me to understand a bit better and to feel slightly less exasperated. What a mess.

There is wider important context for women being able to identify male-pattern abusive behaviours which pre-dates discussion about gender identities.

Yes. I suspect JB is aware of that. Being an experienced feminist. Yet still 2 broadly different approaches.

What a mess

Yes. But progress has been made.

Yet still 2 broadly different approaches.

I disagree that there are two tribes /two approaches /two sides

There are a large number of women who have been working hard to try to protect Safeguarding &/or women's sex based rights in a wide range of ways.

I think we all mostly agree on all this but the academic side seem to want transexual males to be referred to as women, whereas Posie et al. including Jenn Smith, say that they are male. I have zero interest in gratuitously offending anyone, but I personally agree with Posie and Jenn.

It's a lot more complicated than that Coyocan.

I have only the sketchiest idea of what's been going on interpersonally between these women, but it does seem clear to me that it would be better for everyone if the majority of it took place outside of the public domain.

And if discussions in the public domain could be contained in one platform at a time, instead of all the cross referencing to Twitter, asking people to join dots etc.

I think we all mostly agree on all this but the academic side seem to want transexual males to be referred to as women, whereas Posie et al. including Jenn Smith, say that they are male

GIRES Trustees Annual Reports 2014-18
beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1068137&subid=0

2018
(extract)
"GIRES has been at the forefront of campaigns to improve the lives of trans people through stronger legal protection, better medical care and greater respect within society. The charity responds to the constant stream of invitations to contribute to consultations on policies that affect the lives of gender diverse people, for instance with regard to the gender recognition process or the education of medical professionals. It also attends the meetings of influential bodies where issues of concern to gender diverse people are discussed, including the Parliamentary Forum on Gender Identity, the Equality and Diversity Forum, the Gender Recognition Panel Users Group, the Office of National Statistics, the Crown Prosecution Service Community Accountability Forum and the National LGB&T Partnership. In addition, GIRES has participated in the development of Good Practice Guidelines for the assessment and treatment of gender incongruent adults and the NHS England specifications for gender identity services for adults and young people. The World Professional Association for Transgender Health has honoured GIRES for its work in education.

Consequently, there is much more to do. The law needs to be simplified and broadened, to respect the autonomy of the individual, and to recognise the great variation between individuals in the gender
diverse population" (continues)

"GIRES is working on monitoring gender identity accurately with NHS England, the Office for National Statistics and the Solicitors Regulation Authority. Gender is often used incorrectly as synonymous with sex. GIRES supports the application of the term “sex” to biological factors and “gender” to psychosocial and cultural factors. Hence, male/female are terms for describing sex. Man/woman, or any variations between or outside these psychosocial categories, are terms for describing gender identity'*

Stonewall Youth information
PUBLISHED 17 JUNE 15

Gender Identity
"Your gender identity is a way to describe how you feel about your gender. You might identify your gender as a boy or a girl or something different. This is different from your sex, which is related to your physical body and biology. People are assigned a gender identity at birth based on their sex.

Some interesting things to think about:

Everyone has a gender identity and expresses their gender in a unique and personal way. This could be through the clothes you wear, the way you stand, the interests you have.
Someone else can’t tell you what your gender identity is – only you know how you feel and you should never feel pressured to label yourself or fit in with other people’s ideas.
Some people know from a young age that their gender identity doesn’t feel the same as what they were assigned at birth, and some people may take a while to work out their gender identity. This is completely fine, everyone is unique.
When talking about gender there can be a lot of words and phrases used that you might not have heard before. We’ve listed some below, but you may hear more:

Gender expression – this is the way that you express your gender! For example, if you identify as a girl you might want to dress in a certain way or read certain books. A lot of people might not be aware of their gender expression, as it’s a natural way that we express ourselves.

Gender dysphoria – this is when someone feels uncomfortable about the gender they were assigned and who they really are. For example, if someone was assigned as a boy at birth and grew up feeling that this wasn’t right, they may have gender dysphoria. There is help and support available for people who experience this.

Transition/transitioning – if someone feels uncomfortable about their gender identity they may choose to transition. This is a very personal decision and can happen in lots of different ways, depending on the person and the options available to them. " (continues)
www.youngstonewall.org.uk/lgbtq-info/gender-identity

Woman / man and girl / boy are not gender identities. They are nouns which specifically describe sex, age and species. All of which are key factors in Safeguarding decisions and responsibilities.

The Department of Health & Social Care "support[s] ministers in leading the nation’s health and social care to help people live more independent, healthier lives for longer."

twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1257332511912460290

the academic side seem to want transsexual males to be referred to as women, whereas Posie et al. including Jenn Smith, say that they are male.

That isn't right.

JCJ's position has always been "transwomen are transwomen", that they are male, but they are neither men nor women, and need their own category. This entails that she rejects that woman means just "adult human female", and thinks there is a social element in "woman" that isn't in "female" (although she hasn't said this to my knowledge, but it follows from what she has said).

Rebecca Reilly Cooper said that a fully medically transitioned transwoman is a woman, but was still male. So she also rejects "woman = adult human female".

Kathleen Stock has explicitly published an academic paper in defence of "woman = adult human female", so she doesn't agree with JCJ or Becca Reilly Cooper. Stock says that it transwomen being treated as women is a fiction.

So "the academics" are not in agreement on this. But none of these three say that any transwomen, no matter how transitioned, are female.

Kathleen Stock never gives an opinion on whether diagnosed and treated ‘genuine’ transwomen should be treated as women or not. She only seems to discuss self identified ones, which she clearly states should not.

JCJ's position has always been "transwomen are transwomen", that they are male, but they are neither men nor women, and need their own category. This entails that she rejects that woman means just "adult human female", and thinks there is a social element in "woman" that isn't in "female" (although she hasn't said this to my knowledge, but it follows from what she has said).

Rebecca Reilly Cooper said that a fully medically transitioned transwoman is a woman, but was still male. So she also rejects "woman = adult human female".

GIRES 'research'
'Gender Variance (Dysphoria)'
2014-09-01
GIRES supports the right of individuals to live according to their true gender identity, rather than one imposed upon them at birth. (continues)

Gender variance is an atypical development in the relationship between the gender identity and the visible sex of an individual. In order to understand this atypical development, it is necessary, firstly, to understand something of the typical development of these elements of our make-up. Many in the scientific and medical professions recognise the terms ‘gender’ and ‘sex’ as having distinct meanings. ‘Gender identity’ describes the psychological recognition of oneself, as well as the wish to be regarded by others, as fitting into the social categories: boy/man or girl/woman. These social categories generate expectations of gender roles, that is, how we are expected to behave in society. ‘Sex’, on the other hand, is usually understood to represent the physical differentiation as male or female, indicated by the external appearance of the genitalia and the presence of gonads (testes in a boy/ovaries in a girl) which will determine reproductive function, and differences in brain structure and function. (continues)
www.gires.org.uk/gender-variance-dysphoria/

You should read Becca's stuff for yourself rather than react to my (possibly poor) summary of it sexandgenderintro.com/

Becca is a long way from GIRES, trust me.

You should read Becca's stuff for yourself rather than react to my (possibly poor) summary of it

I have read, listened & share a lot of her work.

I think Rebecca Reilly-Cooper's speech at an early WPUK meeting might to help explain her position:

A Woman’s Place is a Sanctuary
Birmingham
Thursday, 15 March 2018

Oh, and all of the GC philosophers totally reject the idea of "gender identity" (which is blatantly circular, so how anyone with philosophical training could possibly believe in it is beyond me) so by definition they are completely different from GIRES and any other TRA org.

Oh, and all of the GC philosophers totally reject the idea of "gender identity"

Kathleen Stock recently tweeted,

"This is spoiler for work to come but something I'm increasingly aware of in writing my book is how unhelpful it is to for feminists/others to be scathing about gender identities non-aligned with sex. The fact some are scathing is no doubt reaction to overreaches made in name/

of gender identity by trans activists. No it doesn't make you female/male/woman/man/neither. No, not everyone has one. But equally no, its not just "personality"; nor is it sign you're stuck in regressive tropes about womanhood or manhood (or no more than most of the planet).

It's not a choice, though it can be indirectly affected by self-interpretation, and it can change over time. And it's not inevitably maladaptive, though minors shouldn't act on it irrevocably. I"m going to try to explain and justify all this in book. In meantime though/

I'm steering clear of narratives that make people with non-sex-aligned gender identities out to be dupes, or fools, or self-indulgent narcissists. I think that's all deeply unfair and alienating and I don't blame trans people or detrans people for being revolted by it."
twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1256146500205363201

I disagree that there are two tribes /two approaches /two sides

There are a large number of women who have been working hard to try to protect Safeguarding &/or women's sex based rights in a wide range of ways.

Yes that’s one analysis. But the division is there otherwise what we’ve seen happen wouldn’t be happening.

how unhelpful it is to for feminists/others to be scathing about gender identities non-aligned with sex

There you go. That's the first I've heard of feminists/others being scathing about gender identities non-aligned with sex.

I've never considered I had a gender identity, but if I do have one it is definitely non-aligned with my sex.

This is spoiler for work to come but something I'm increasingly aware of in writing my book is how unhelpful it is to for feminists/others to be scathing about gender identities non-aligned with sex. The fact some are scathing is no doubt reaction to overreaches made in name

of gender identity by trans activists. No it doesn't make you female/male/woman/man/neither. No, not everyone has one. But equally no, its not just "personality"; nor is it sign you're stuck in regressive tropes about womanhood or manhood (or no more than most of the planet).

It's not a choice, though it can be indirectly affected by self-interpretation, and it can change over time. And it's not inevitably maladaptive, though minors shouldn't act on it irrevocably. I"m going to try to explain and justify all this in book. In meantime though

I'm steering clear of narratives that make people with non-sex-aligned gender identities out to be dupes, or fools, or self-indulgent narcissists. I think that's all deeply unfair and alienating and I don't blame trans people or detrans people for being revolted by it.
My formal education stopped at 16.
Human beings cannot change sex. That's it for me. No amount of wordy intellectual pontification will change that.

I love that pretty much everyone on MN is anonymous. When I started here it was an unusual experience to engage with people who don’t know your experience or real life reputation. Your views stand or fall only on your contributions here. On Twitter OTOH some are anon and others aren’t. There is a much stronger tendency for the known people to listen more to other known people (not just on feminism). Maybe that’s natural but it’s pretty undeniable that the push back against the TRA agenda has been instigated by anons and MNers in particular before most of the known feminists fully engaged or re-engaged with this issue.

I don’t have much time for tone policing other women or distancing from other women. Everyone has a perspective on feminist issues and I care less about whether other feminists are pure enough than on whether they are working to the same goal, even if that is only on a single issue.