Julie Bindel on twitter

[Anonymouswasawoman]

Did her account get deleted?
twitter.com/bindelj/
Twitter is telling me it doesn't exist

[CatandtheFiddle]

Just tagging on here:

I think a cwrtain amount of cognitive dissonance is probably inevitable. I have a former colleague (remains an acquaintance) - someone I liked as a colleague & keep in touch with in a warm but by no means close relationship. A transwoman - I knew her pre & post-operatively.

When I 'm asked aggressively by y undergrads whether I think TWAW I pause - this particular acquaintance is not a man in any social sense, but she's not a woman either, because she is biologically male. I can hold both of those ideas in my head, and see the contradiction, and not get particularly stressed about it, as there are things about this person I value as a human being.

But I know that "she" is male.

For friends & acquaintances, maybe it is kindness. Altho' I have a young relative who's FtM, and I am truly in despair about that - I have to smile & nod, and play along with my relative's mother's transMuchhausen's, but it is gutting.

However, in political , strategic, and policy terms, kindness has far less of a place. Indeed, it should have none, as it is SO culturally constructed to be a part of that version of femininity which oppresses us all (us being women). So in policy & strategy matters, we must always regard transwomen as biologically male. Sex not gender.

But, I don't think we should be enacting purity of thought tests all the time. We each have to accommodate the world as we can - for example, I could lambast any woman married to a man, for example, as giving in to a VERY harmful patriarchal institution ... particularly anyone who then becomes a SAHM.

But I don't - because women have to make lives within patriarchy and rub up against/resist the structures which oppress them in whatever ways they can manage.

[R0wantrees]

Jennifer Bilek’s important recent article on ‘good transwomen’ has initiated a long-overdue conversation about the role and influence of ‘transsexuals’ within gender critical spaces.

6/5/2020 Uncommonground Media by Jennifer Bilek:

'Deconstructing the “Good Transwomen”
Transwomen who recognise the misogyny inherent in transgender and transsexual activism must still confront the objectification of women they participate in.'

uncommongroundmedia.com/deconstructing-the-good-transwomen/

[R0wantrees]

current thread, OP SpartacusAutisticus wrote:

"Julia Long article on the 'meaningful transition'
Worth a read:

If you can’t change your sex, why are the terms ‘transsexual’ and ‘transwoman’ lent credence among British gender critical feminists?

Jennifer Bilek’s important recent article on ‘good transwomen’ has initiated a long-overdue conversation about the role and influence of ‘transsexuals’ within gender critical spaces. In this piece I continue the conversation with a consideration of the inhibiting effects of their presence on critical thinking and language use in the British context.

Language determines what is perceptible, thinkable, possible and knowable within a culture. Language develops to support and enable different ways of thinking, or is suppressed in order to discourage them. The speed and ease with which new terms are established determines how quickly new social realities become normal; ‘social distancing’ and ‘self-isolation’ are obvious current examples. The relationship between the words we use and the lives we live is, to borrow Andrea Dworkin’s phrase, an umbilical one. "

//uncommongroundmedia.com/a-meaningful-transition-julia-long/?fbclid=IwAR2EMdlA4zzwEdelWzQXjJEBSoOjk-LuufE9CLOcltYoyphlqUY_YgpKdck

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3907160-Julia-Long-article-on-the-meaningful-transition

[R0wantrees]

"assertions that anyone who chooses to "mis-sex" even a friend or family member in private is betraying womankind and must inevitably suffer cognitive dissonance."

yes & then,
I think I am safe in guessing that those making such assertions here would have been cheering on the 14 year old girl whose actions led to the CPS withdrawing its schools guidance. The guidance that, according to the Safe Schools Alliance, sought to police and criminalise "personal thoughts" and private conversations.

If that is not cause for cognitive dissonance it can only be due to lack of insight - or hypocrisy.

which was the point I was responding to.
Apologies for not being clear.

[MoleSmokes]

R0wantrees - neither am I. This is what I said,

"assertions that anyone who chooses to "mis-sex" even a friend or family member in private is betraying womankind and must inevitably suffer cognitive dissonance."

[Floisme]

What I have objected to is monitoring women's personal friendships and how they conduct their friendships. I think it's intrusive. If you don't like my use of 'policing' and 'authoritarianism' feel free to suggest other words.

[R0wantrees]

Mole Despite the allegations of policing/authoritanism, I'm not aware of any woman/FWR poster who has proposed or seems likely to propose making the use of opposite sex pronouns/descriptors a criminal offence/Hate Crime.

[MoleSmokes]

I did not see what blew up on Twitter and most of the links to tweets and blog posts that "clarify" are now dead ends to deleted tweets and pages. (Kathleen Stock's blog post is still up at the time of writing: kathleenstock.com/anger/)

I think I have managed to work out most of it from posts in this thread and that there were several different issues.

However, this thread seems now to be replicating at least part of what played out on Twitter, if I have understood it correctly. That is, assertions that anyone who chooses to "mis-sex" even a friend or family member in private is betraying womankind and must inevitably suffer cognitive dissonance.

I think I am safe in guessing that those making such assertions here would have been cheering on the 14 year old girl whose actions led to the CPS withdrawing its schools guidance. The guidance that, according to the Safe Schools Alliance, sought to police and criminalise "personal thoughts" and private conversations.

If that is not cause for cognitive dissonance it can only be due to lack of insight - or hypocrisy.

As far as the "names" mentioned are concerned, I wish we could for all of them just celebrate the good that they have each done in their own ways and then, full-stop, before the "But she . . . " caveats kick in. The problem with that is that some "names" have done harm deliberately to other "names" and/or have disrespected "anons" and it is all too raw and recent and would add insult to injury to those harmed.

I hope those differences can be resolved in time, that there can be apologies and, where possible, forgiveness. Kathleen Stock has made a move in that direction: kathleenstock.com/anger/

Someone else upstream mentioned that she had learned most from FWR threads where there are disagreements, because varying views are expressed and argued. I feel the same way. FWR is all the better for not being a monoculture. That said, this thread has felt at times uncomfortably like a "re-education pile-on", which is what it sounds the Twitter brouhaha was like.

Maybe it is "Covid lock-down" getting to a lot of us, me included?

[R0wantrees]

UnHerd by Julie Bindel
11/5/2020
'Why are we placing high risk sex trans offenders in women's prisons?'
(extract)
"Female prisoners are some of the most vulnerable and disenfranchised women on the planet. Most have suffered some type of male violence and end up in prison as a result of chaotic behaviour and substance abuse, which stems from childhood sexual abuse and neglect. Disproportionate numbers have been through the care system.

The women’s estate is the poor relative of the men’s, with far fewer resources. Why was the first dedicated wing set up to contain high-risk sex transgender offenders placed in a female rather than male prison? E Wing in Downview Prison, Surrey, was set up in the wake of the Karen White scandal. E Wing prisoners sleep and shower separately from the women but are allowed to mix with the female population during some leisure activities. Why could E Wing not have been set up in the men’s estate?

E Wing was previously a unit for assisting up to 16 women preparing for release. These women have now been returned to the general wing, and therefore lost hard-earned privileges.

I have campaigned on behalf of women in prison since co-founding Justice for Women in 1991, and am furious that these women now have to worry about attacks from transgender sex offenders as well as male prison staff.

Bearing in mind the high numbers of women suffering from trauma caused by abusive men, it is particularly shocking that the Prison Service (PS) consider it a workable solution to place high-risk transgender sex offenders in women’s prisons.

According to official Prison Service figures, transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners. There have been seven recorded attacks since 2010 by transgender prisoners, and these figures don’t even include those prisoners who have legally changed sex." (continues)

Despite the PS claiming to have considered the rights of all those in custody alongside transgender sex offenders, stating that “These risks must be considered fully and balanced against each other,” the policy fails to balance the rights of female prisoners and transgender inmates. Ultimately, it places the rights of trans-identified male bodied sex offenders above those of women in fear of male violence."

unherd.com/thepost/why-are-we-placing-trans-sex-offenders-in-womens-prisons/

[Floisme]

Thank you for your posts, R0. I have read them and thought about them.

My position has not changed. I am not prepared to monitor how women address or refer to their friends, or indeed their choice of friends.

[R0wantrees]

It is undoubtedly appealing to refute the allegation of transphobia by saying ‘I have trans friends’ or ‘look, a trans person agrees with me’ but this both excludes women who need us (transwidows, daughters of trans identified fathers)

Children of Transitioners
AUGUST 29, 2019
The Invisible Mother
(extract)
"Mum was working in Debenhams but it wasn’t going well. She had no support from anyone and was battling mental illness – and I mean battling, trying so hard to keep it together. She was working from payday to payday with nothing to spare. She’d left everything we had behind in a dash away from my father. All she had were some clothes and a wedding ring she was forced to sell. Later, the council offered us a place in a former army barracks that had been converted into accommodation for the homeless. We were to share a unit with a married couple; probably the most creepy people I have ever encountered. After one visit to our proposed new home, Mum finally gave up and sent me to live with my grandparents. We never lived together again. I was nine years old.

Where was my father while this was happening? Actually, doing very well. He’d taken a new job in London now that there was no wife and child to look after. He’d started a new relationship with another woman, not telling her about his predilection for women’s clothing and belief that he was a transsexual, and would shortly be living in her beautiful home and spending her inheritance. No money for us from my father – not one penny while I wore shabby second hand clothes and Mum struggled.

I don’t see much respect for mothers from the trans community, although the word ‘mother’ is sometimes appropriated. I suppose it’s one answer to an obvious problem: what do you call a Daddy who doesn’t want to be called ‘Daddy’ any more? I had to call my father something and he hadn’t provided me with any other option. Ironically, when he was going in for his operation I told friends at school that ‘my mother’ would be away for a while in hospital. At least one of them assumed it was for a hysterectomy. But now I am angry that I had to pretend my real mother didn’t exist. I wish I hadn’t felt obliged to disrespect my mother like that." (continues)
childrenoftransitioners.org/2019/08/29/the-invisible-mother/

[R0wantrees]

It is undoubtedly appealing to refute the allegation of transphobia by saying ‘I have trans friends’ or ‘look, a trans person agrees with me’ but this both excludes women who need us (transwidows, daughters of trans identified fathers), muddies the waters and uses other people, those claiming to be trans, for one’s own ends. No person should be used as a means to an end. The belief that women have full humanity does not have to be defended by any kind of shallow show, our ideas and evidence stand on their own. With no reasonable scientific basis transsexualism/transgenderism remains at the status of an ideology, and an ideology which is antithetical to feminism."



Make More Noise 'A Plea for Help for Feminists from a Trans Widow'
Updated: Oct 17, 2019
(extract)
"I was inspired to get up and speak at the Manchester “Make More Noise” the Elephant in the Room, event when Sarah Cookesley said, when talking about domestic abuse “Some women are being killed- softly, softly, drip by excruciating drip.”

I married a man who fathered my daughter in the conventional way. Ten years later he decided that he had been a woman all along and so our marriage ended. I left the marital home, taking my daughter with me. The man I married, no longer exists and I am forbidden from referring to him by his former “dead name”.


Having your boundaries gradually and forcibly broken down and compromised over a period of time until your marriage becomes nothing like the arrangement that you signed up to, feels exactly like Sarah describes- a slow death with everything you thought you knew about yourself being gradually crushed out of existence. But with the support of other women, we trans widows can rise again" (continues)

What can you do to help women like me?


Don’t call my ex “she” when you talk about him to me. Call him what you like when you speak to him, but describing him with female pronouns to me, makes my life not make sense and my daughter’s life not make sense.


Don’t, under any circumstances, refer to him as my daughter’s mother. She only has one mother and it is not him.


Seek out and share the stories of trans widows. Help our voices to be heard. Late transitioning men leave women and girls in their wake- wives, mothers, daughters and sisters who are asked not only to rewrite their past but to celebrate a new future that they do not recognise.


Many trans widows report feeling gagged by everybody else lauding their partners as “stunning and brave”. Our ex’s are often celebrated twitter personalities, newspaper columnists or the subjects of documentaries, but those of us wives who leave are forced to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals. Support those women who put themselves and their children first.


When you hear of a late transitioning male, let your first thought be for these women and how they are affected. If it is somebody in your circle of acquaintance, seek out the wife or the mother and let her know that she has your support.(continues)

concludes:
Don’t exclude some women from feminism in the interests of inclusiveness. Imagine seeking support from other women, only to find that your husband or father had got there first?

When you allow our ex partners space in your feminism and give them platforms in your organisations and at your meetings, you exclude their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers from accessing these spaces and making use of resources that were set up to support women like them. Prioritise women over your desire to have a “get out of jail free” card to hold up against hostile accusations of bigotry


Above all, the most important thing that you can do to help trans widows, is to centre women and girls in your feminism. "
makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

website: www.transwidowsvoices.org/

recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3856287-New-Transwidows-website-Trans-Widows-Voices

[Floisme]

I have seen that thread and I have followed this one.

I understand the arguments.

I value clear thinking.

I am still not going to police how women address their friends.

I want nothing to do with it.

[R0wantrees]

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3904236-another-woman-being-threatened-with-legal-action-for-calling-a-man-a-man

[Goosefoot]

There is an authoritarianism about this thread which reminds me of why I no longer consider myself part of the left

In hindsight I think this was in the background even years ago.

[Goosefoot]

Not sure I understand your point above Goosefoot.

And when you say It's possible to say, no, in a courtroom or a hospital or a records office the considerations are different than they are when I am talking to a waiter in fact it seems that it is not possible to say this. Compelled speech is now a feature of the court room. Likewise in a medical setting as the Zoe app using the untruthful phrase ‘sex assigned at birth’ reveals.

This is why I am holding fast to the truth. Everywhere.

No, I mean possible within an individual, or it should be possible, as a society, to understand that their are different circumstances. The courts should be clear and truthful, and I would say medical stuff at the level where you are talking about objective things, public discourse about things that people disagree on in general needs to be conducted in a clear way with clear language. I don't believe in legally compelling speech and I think there needs to be a lot of care around socially compelled speech too.

I think it's quite possible to do that and at the same time deal with individual situations in a different way. In fact I'd say that most of us do that a lot in all kinds of areas.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

I do also agree that lying in court is where it falls apart.

I personally go round it in circles. I appreciate all perspectives.

[Binterested]

I won’t lie to or around children either. I would have thought not lying in court would be key too but we are being made to lie in court. Being pushed like this does clarify boundaries somewhat.

Mine are drawn pretty high, I confess, in lots of areas of my life. I actually wouldn’t have a friend who needed lying to. That’s just how I like to live. Maybe that’s what underlies the disagreement - where our own personal boundaries are.

[NeurotrashWarrior]

I have no idea what prompted this letter. Part of the ongoing discussion I imagine.


letter.wiki/conversation/648#letter_2081

[NeurotrashWarrior]

I'm not following all this as I used to as I'm a mother and have young very active children. There is definitely a gender divide in the pandemic.

This thread and all the associated arguments; of which I do see all sides, has weighed on my mind. But I've been feeling exactly as Floisme has succinctly put it.

Compelled speech goes both ways.

Many perspectives and many voices in this are needed or it becomes as authoritarian as the TRA movement.

I make a specific distinction around children; this comes down to safeguarding and I won't lie to, with or around children.

[Binterested]

I’m definitely not part of the left. Homeless now in fact.

[Floisme]

I understand Goosefoot's point and (from what I've read on here - I don't know her circumstances) I would understand if Julie Bindel called her friend 'she'. Friendships and relationships are complicated and messy.

There is an authoritarianism about this thread which reminds me of why I no longer consider myself part of the left.

[Binterested]

Not sure I understand your point above Goosefoot.

And when you say It's possible to say, no, in a courtroom or a hospital or a records office the considerations are different than they are when I am talking to a waiter in fact it seems that it is not possible to say this. Compelled speech is now a feature of the court room. Likewise in a medical setting as the Zoe app using the untruthful phrase ‘sex assigned at birth’ reveals.

This is why I am holding fast to the truth. Everywhere.

[Goosefoot]

Agreed. It was you who brought your friend & his history into the discussion.

You are completely missing the point and I'm increasingly wondering if you are being disingenuous on purpose.

Several posters seemed to think that referring to such a person as if they were in fact a woman was some sort of sign of cogitive dissonance, or that really they think TWAW, or have some sort of "not my Nigel" justification.

The fact is that none of those things are necessarily the case, it's possible to see a systemic problem or scientific problem or legal problem, and also determine that the best course of action with a real person in certain instances is not to try and make some kind of political point by insisting on calling them "he" or whatever else you think your politics entails.

[Binterested]

Amazing. From the days when the Guardian was truthful.

On a separate note we recently did Rudyard Kipling’s Kim for our book group. All approached it with trepidation because of his reputation. But it’s rather lovely and his passion for India is what comes through the most. There’s a wide range of Indian characters from all religions and walks of life and even Kim himself, although he is a white boy, is closer to the Indians than the Sahibs. There are a few problematic parts but nothing exceptional for the era and certainly not worse than you’d find in Dickens. I found a lovely write up of it in the Guardian, also from a few years ago - someone describing it as their comfort read and giving all the reasons why it’s worth reading. The Guardian would never ever print that now. They have closed their minds to everything. Even now that they are printing the odd GC view, the narrowness of the Guardian’s outlook makes it unreadable for me now. They are missing so much of the world. Claudia’s story, beautiful but unfashionable books, truthful women . Bet they’ve not covered the brave teenage girl vs Oxfordshire either.