“Women basically already have equal rights in the West”

[Ethelfleda]

I’ve heard this statement from a few people over the past year or so, always from men.
I know they’re wrong but I so rarely know how to tell them they’re wrong.
I want to tell them they’re wrong without patronising them because it is my belief that once you do this, you alienate your audience and they won’t ever come around to your way of thinking.

What do you say to this statement??

Are we hitting the coalmines and Titanic stage of the "debate"?

I'm bored with all the anti feminist wanking. Please tell us more about TinyKitty, Bewilderness.

...i mean actually do it, working 70 hours per week plus 12 hours for commuting to work?

May I direct your attention to what is currently happening in the world?

in nature it tends to be the males that are the aggressors; the ones that fight other males for access to territory, and for access to females

Males are the only ones who can ever leave their victim pregnant.

Men are not 'taught' to be violent towards women, either

Yet they learn it from somewhere...

She's a five pound chirping charmer. Blue eyes and tabby points, so I am guessing Siamese mix.
She smelled when she arrived so I isolated her until I got some meds from my vet for the ear mites and fleas. They are only taking urgent care right now so no idea when they will be willing to spay her.
She is absolutely adorable and we are all delighted she came to stay except only me, really.

Men are not 'taught' to be violent towards women, either
Children learn what they live. In a misogynistic society children learn misogyny.

I'd think "reluctantly tolerate" would be more true of the others.

Women don't even have the right to a name for their own sex class, or to a discussion that isn't derided or disrupted.

A discussion isn’t you talking without being ‘disrupted’. That’s a monologue/lecture.

The men are the ones who are demonstrating in front of the state houses here in the US threatening to murder the governors if they continue with the lockdown, the lockdown that the men are violating with impunity.

I’ve watched 3-4 videos on here and FB and all had loads of women in. Happy to post links if you want.

Are you saying the govt has decided men are more disposable?"

I doubt it’s a conscious ‘decision’. Far more likely to be along the lines of institutionalised disposability.

do you have an example when men and children are evacuated?

The overwhelming majority of at-sea ship evacuations do not follow the Birkenhead Drill and men have a higher survival rate than women and children, with the crew faring best of all. Have a research paper proving this and a layperson's summary.

how many women actually want to be breadwinner? and i mean actually do it, working 70 hours per week plus 12 hours for commuting to work?

I do not know a single man nor woman who works nor commutes such absurd hours. Even my (male) boss tops out at 50 hours. I top out at 40 and I live alone so am my own breadwinner. If you work 70 hours/week, that's on you for not having a spine to tell your employer to give you a manageable workload.

When you have to make shit up, your argument is on really shakey ground.

Don't be silly, of course everyone with a penis commutes for precisely 12 hours per week! We know this because the very helpful and 100% reasonable and accurate person has now told us so.

Also, Titanic.

I broadly acknowledge the general balances of power in the world, but no longer necessarily agree on the explanations, and maybe not all of the solutions.

Just noticed this quote and I’d say it largely describes my viewpoint.

In these types of discussions I often get called an anti-feminist, but in reality I likely share many of the same goals. I just hate complainers and honestly find that a significant portion of people who spend a lot of time on the internet tend to be the types who cry over spilt milk and focus on the problem rather than look for a solution. By disagreeing with their approach it is often automatically assumed that I disagree with feminism.

I think things can definitely improve for women but I don’t think there’s been some deliberate coordinated effort to suppress women, and certainly not by most blokes today.

People in general don’t like whingers and tend to distance themselves from drama, especially when there is no personal incentive to put up with it. I’d wager that a lot of guys don’t even really know what feminists really want tbh. They moan about macho men, they moan about feminist men, the moan about woke beardies. But then after all that, the evidence shows that even feminists tend to prefer dating traditional/sexist men. It’s a bit like a puzzle at times. 🤷‍♀️

Study - Feminists Think Sexist Men Are Sexier Than "Woke" Men

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201812/feminists-think-sexist-men-are-sexier-woke-men

If you work 70 hours/week, that's on you for not having a spine to tell your employer to give you a manageable workload.

Many non-office jobs are around 60 hours. My partner usually works 12 hr shifts and occasionally has to stay for an extra couple of hours if something goes down.

Women are not immune from being the perpetrators of violence and abuse.

We know. It's indicated by 95% of violence being perpetrated by men and not 100%. But 5% by women isn't comparable to 95% by men, which is the point.

Dying in childbirth is tragic but it’s an entirely different scenario. Can you imagine if people went to the cinema to rejoice at graphic depictions of women dying in childbirth like they do with men dying at war?

I can give three possible explanations of this:

1. Death in childbirth and other maternity-related complications are such normalised and expected sacrifices from women that recruiting campaigns aren't needed to ensure a continued supply of women to make that sacrifice. The lionisation of military service in films is a recruiting campaign.
2. The recruiting campaign for women to become mothers looks different from that for men to become soldiers. Women are shown in the cinema as happy mothers with healthy children, the nasty aspects are glossed over.
3. Who needs to persuade women to become mothers when you can shame them into carrying to term instead of aborting, restrict their contraceptive access, allow males into DV shelters, and fail to prosecute rapists? Do these things and nature will take its course...

Many non-office jobs are around 60 hours.

That's weird, because the Working Time Directive limits almost all workers to 48 hours/week.

If you chose to opt out of the WTD, that's on you.

I’ve watched 3-4 videos on here and FB and all had loads of women in.

How very odd. I have seen over a dozen videos of armed gangs of white male terrorists and only two where women participated.

Death in childbirth and other maternity-related complications are such normalised and expected sacrifices from women that recruiting campaigns aren't needed to ensure a continued supply of women to make that sacrifice.

And yet many women spend thousands on IVF to become pregnant. Beggars belief! It’s almost as if they actually want to be mothers.

That's enough bullshit for me.

How very odd. I have seen over a dozen videos of armed gangs of white male terrorists and only two where women participated.

It’s probably your confirmation bias.

I do keep pointing out that it's not worth engaging (said in the full knowledge that those determined to pick a fight with feminists will just keep baiting and prodding until someone does).

That's weird, because the Working Time Directive limits almost all workers to 48 hours/week.

If you chose to opt out of the WTD, that's on you.

Yes, all those silly nurses/carers.

And then they are people like my friend who was pressured into it and accepted for fear of losing her job. Not everybody has the privilege of choice.

I do keep pointing out that it's not worth engaging (said in the full knowledge that those determined to pick a fight with feminists will just keep baiting and prodding until someone does).

Feminist Defence Force paging damage control. Must...shut...down...debate.

And yet many women spend thousands on IVF to become pregnant. Beggars belief! It’s almost as if they actually want to be mothers.

The "you're not complete with a husband and kids" message, that we have been told since we read Cinderella, is a very very powerful one.

There are men who spend a lot of money on fitness programmes to get into the armed forces. American transwomen (who are male) have recently spent time and money fighting Trump's attempts to bar them from military service. It's almost as if they want to be shot at...

The "you're not complete with a husband and kids" message, that we have been told since we read Cinderella, is a very very powerful one.

I think it’s likely rooted in evolutionary programming more than fairy stories, and I’m not just saying that to disagree with you. And who gives a shit about these messages anyway? I don’t want kids and anybody who tells me I’m not complete can get fucked - most people who are happily fulfilled in life don’t waste their time judging others anyway IME.

There are men who spend a lot of money on fitness programmes to get into the armed forces. American transwomen (who are male) have recently spent time and money fighting Trump's attempts to bar them from military service. It's almost as if they want to be shot at...

Men love playing the hero. Possibly also biological to an extent but there’s also a lot of social programming about the hero getting the girl.

And then they are people like my friend who was pressured into it and accepted for fear of losing her job.

You realise that these things called "trade unions" and "employment tribunals" exist?

Feminist Defence Force paging damage control. Must...shut...down...debate.

Not at all. Kittens is suggesting that I stop wasting my time on people who bring up the Birkenhead Drill, which was never law and is seldom used, as an argument that women get preferential treatment throughout society. She has a point, in that someone who relies on myths is unlikely to be arguing in good faith. You've supported her point nicely by accusing her of trying to shut down the debate when in fact she was doing no such thing.

Keep digging, old chap.

Apologies if I’ve been a bit argumentative. I do genuinely enjoy debating this but the hard truth Is that we don’t agree on some things. I’m fine with that.