“Women basically already have equal rights in the West”

[Ethelfleda]

I’ve heard this statement from a few people over the past year or so, always from men.
I know they’re wrong but I so rarely know how to tell them they’re wrong.
I want to tell them they’re wrong without patronising them because it is my belief that once you do this, you alienate your audience and they won’t ever come around to your way of thinking.

What do you say to this statement??

Just, you're not in charge of how women should post on this board, you're coming across as if you think you are.

Supercilious use of adjectives a speciality....." disdainful"; " risible"; "absurd"; " juvenile".......

Are you marking posters' vocabulary choices *Just'?
This is not your classroom.

Just, you're not in charge of how women should post on this board, you're coming across as if you think you are

And likewise, people may post in any way they choose, and question any dogma......so long as they are not personally offensive or do not breech the rules.

If others want to behave in "juvenile, absurd or risible ways" by talking about cats or cakes, in a thinly disguised attempt to bully or silence those who discuss women's issues in a way that doesn't appeal to them personally, then I guess it is also reasonable for them to expect a commensurate response. Nobody takes well to supercilious comment.

I like ellipses.......they , for me, convey a train of thought in process; unfinished. I've been using them a lot in recent times. but I also favour semi-colons as a stylistic device.Idiosyncratic , maybe.......but that is surely permitted?

breach the rules

It is hardly fair, Just, to expect high school drop outs like myself to meet your high standards of...communication. /snark

Just a reminder to everyone that the witching hour doth approach. Sit on your hands, people. The witching hour will soon pass, as all things do.

It is hardly fair, Just, to expect high school drop outs like myself to meet your high standards of...communication

TehBewilderness, I wouldn't worry about it. It's not terribly obvious and you should see how some of the post-graduates I work with compose their emails.

Its not that they are not permitted, its more a case of stones and glass houses.

Ellipses are my favourite type of punctuation...

...or are they?

It is very much stones and glass houses...and snark tags.

Dear lord, what happened to this thread??

Lewis' Law.

Absolutely

Lewis's Law is an unofficial principle of the Internet that states that the comments on any article about feminism justify feminism

So, basically " No debate"? Sounds familiar.

By this law, Lewis means that pro-feminist internet content inevitably draws sexist reactions from men. In other words, simply mentioning feminism can provoke hateful, misogynist comments from male trolls

And any woman who poses an alternative view or seeks to explore must be a man or a troll. That just about sums up quite a lot of what I've witnessed and experienced on this forum since signing up.

I guess most forums are like this........and the nature of the internet too...anonymity can lead to behaviours or attitudes that might not be displayed face to face...and people's more extreme sides can often be on show.

It has shown to me that 'feminism', certainly as many present it on this particular forum....can be as bad as any other intersectional perspective - in terms of fixity, rigidity and unwillingness to question certain ideas or formulations. I never expected that...but there you go...

Any movement which is by definition oppositional will inevitably draw opposition.

@Justhadathought You sound very sincere, then people read your comments and realise that no, you are not giving an alternative point of view.
I'm still waiting for you to engage over your accusation. What word would you use instead of 'they' in the context of the sentence;

''...then imo you actually have a lower opinion of them than most feminists who believe men can unlearn what they have been taught.''

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3891585--Women-basically-already-have-equal-rights-in-the-West?msgid=96190555

It has shown to me that 'feminism', certainly as many present it on this particular forum....can be as bad as any other intersectional perspective - in terms of fixity, rigidity and unwillingness to question certain ideas or formulations. I never expected that...but there you go...

The horror of discovering that women are people and even have the unmitigated gall to go around acting just like people. Shocking!
I do not exaggerate when I say I have heard women accused of acting like people as though it were a bad thing thousands of times. It reflects badly on you, Just.

Presumably no one here ever engages in what they think of as justified criticisms in the discussion style of any other group, for example being manipulative or moving the goalposts or trying to control what can be discussed.

Oh wait - that gets discussed all the time

As people often point out, feminism isn't one thing, it's a group of related thoughts, and there has always been discussion within it. It doesn't belong to one person or even one faction. And like any live system it also has to engage with the world, with new ideas and discoveries, either incorporating them, or exploring and refuting them. Living traditions always change.

People often complain about others telling them they are feminising or womaning wrong here, but funnily it's often the same people who do the same to others who don't toe the line.

Interesting thread! Well the first half anyway.. Lots of good points and it was great reading well articulated arguments for different viewpoints.

In terms of things like women's rights, minority rights etc, I've started thinking about how much the government / state can or should influence societal change.
Legislation is certainly appropriate to tackle certain issues - for example, ensuring marital rape is also criminalised and prosecuted.
It's less clear to me how effective legislation or policies can be in terms of other issues like ensuring there are more women on company boards or in STEM careers. I think there are various social and economic factors that contribute to such outcomes and there are no simple explanations or simple solutions, therefore more nuanced debate and analysis is required.

'...then imo you actually have a lower opinion of them than most feminists who believe men can unlearn what they have been taught

If i'm honest reading that back it doesn't sound bad....but then you need to be aware it was also written in a context, and atmosphere, of intolerance, from several, towards certain expressions or points....None of which were unreasonable or beyond the pale, in my view. There was , potential for some very fruitful and interesting discussion.....but instead we got cats, snide comments, and a general mood of ganging up...... & as someone pointed out - bullying.

I've witnessed that quite a bit on this forum, and that is not just when i've been personally involved, but with others too. Yes, i am aware the forum does get trolled.....but some seem more than happy to indulge in all of the above, rather than just ignore, or perhaps to respond in good faith.

I do not exaggerate when I say I have heard women accused of acting like people as though it were a bad thing thousands of times. It reflects badly on you, Just

And yet, what I've often witnessed is women claiming some kind of moral or behavioural superiority for women as a whole......automatically bunkering down into the "men are bastards who must be taught how to behave properly" mode.

So many threads on here in which the 'menu' of possible response is so predictable, and limited......with stock phrases and feminist tropes hauled out for yet another airing without second thought. It really does show up that inter-sectionalist/Identity based politics for what it is. Which is one group blaming another group for all of their ills or sufferings. Always oppressed, always victims.

And when anyone points out that not all members of any 'assigned group' behave in certain ways........you get derision, and accusations of internalised misogyny/internalised racism etc...and on this thread, for example, 'NAMALT' is wheeled out, once again, in a scornful way.

People often complain about others telling them they are feminising or womaning wrong here, but funnily it's often the same people who do the same to others who don't toe the line

Quite!

Have to say how much I have enjoyed and appreciated your posts. I always look out for them. You seem to have a knack for getting to the nub of an issue and articulating it better than most; certainly more succinctly than me. I think that is because you are able to retain an element of personal detachment that most can't. Certainly more than me.

Talking about cats is bullying?

bullying!

Perhaps saying it over and over again makes it so?

Awareness of predictable & recognisable control patterns is important.
From current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness?pg=3

'How Narcissists Play the Victim and Twist the Story'
By Darius Cikanavicius
23 Dec 2019

(extract)
Framing the story
Narcissists also like to truncate the story and present only the bit where the aggrieved party reacted to their toxic behavior, framing it as if that’s where the story started (see picture).

Or they twist it by using euphemisms and deceiving language (“I’m not controlling, I just want what’s best for you.”).

For example, if a narcissist dislikes you and tries to bully you but you stand up for yourself, they will frame it as if they are the ones being a victim of bullying. In their narrative they were just doing their thing or joking around and you started being mean to them. Meanwhile, they simply left out what happened beforehand when they bullied you, so actually you “being mean” to them is a normal response to toxic behavior.

Here, by leaving out or downplaying their aggression they simply frame you engaging in self-defense as vile aggression against them. And then they think: “How dare you react or challenge me! You’re so sensitive and unfair! That’s why you deserve everything that’s coming!” (continues)
blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/07/narcissist-delusion/