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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“Women basically already have equal rights in the West”

452 replies

Ethelfleda · 26/04/2020 13:48

I’ve heard this statement from a few people over the past year or so, always from men.
I know they’re wrong but I so rarely know how to tell them they’re wrong.
I want to tell them they’re wrong without patronising them because it is my belief that once you do this, you alienate your audience and they won’t ever come around to your way of thinking.

What do you say to this statement??

OP posts:
Justhadathought · 04/05/2020 10:44

Some women may well be more promiscuous by nature ( By promiscuous I mean having sex with multiple men, rather than simply enjoying sex a lot), but I suspect in many, even most circumstances, it is because they have been sexually abused as children - and as a result have a distorted experience of healthy sexual relations

I, myself, experimented sexually in my teens.....but soon grew out of that...as I realised it was not a long term healthy 'occupation' and actually resulted in feelings of personal violation to some extent.

QuentinWinters · 04/05/2020 10:52

Men are generally seen as the more expendable sex
Absolute bollocks. The death of women is so commonplace it's barely remarked upon. Historically, death in childbirth was just accepted and even today not much is said about the fact that there is a 1 in 7000 risk a woman will die if she has a baby.
Women are murdered by their partners, again not much is said or done about this.

Men's deaths in wars are lionized, that's why films are made about them and why we have the tomb of the unknown soldier.

Famous stories of women who gave their lives in war (e.g. the SOE) are totally ignored.

Men are not expendable in the same way women are.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/05/2020 10:55

I say this with love so please don't take it as an attack - why are the sensible FWR regulars engaging with bog standard MRA talking points? The more we engage the more likely those displaying that behavior will be to want to stick around.

QuentinWinters · 04/05/2020 10:55

There are no sexed based instructions for shielding...only for age related or specific under-lying health conditions
And that is exactly my point. It's become clear that men are at higher risk, men between 50 and 60 especially so. Logic dictates that we should be able to be more nuanced about shielding as we learn more about the disease - so why aren't these men asked to stay home? (Or a subset with obesity, for example).

Men are not more vital to society than women, we could function just as well if those men were told to shield and they would be protected. Why aren't we doing that?

QuentinWinters · 04/05/2020 10:56

True, sorry prodigal

It's nice to have a non-trans thread but then obviously that draws out the mras. I'm going to ice a cake.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/05/2020 11:00

I get the temptation, Quentin, but it's like feeding something and then wondering why it keeps hanging around your garden.

I've been contemplating baking bread for the first time since childhood, if only I could get hold of yeast.

RabidChinchilla · 04/05/2020 11:04

Absolute bollocks. The death of women is so commonplace it's barely remarked upon. Historically, death in childbirth was just accepted and even today not much is said about the fact that there is a 1 in 7000 risk a woman will die if she has a baby.
Women are murdered by their partners, again not much is said or done about this.

Men's deaths in wars are lionized, that's why films are made about them and why we have the tomb of the unknown soldier.

Famous stories of women who gave their lives in war (e.g. the SOE) are totally ignored.

Men are not expendable in the same way women are.

Dying in childbirth is tragic but it’s an entirely different scenario. Can you imagine if people went to the cinema to rejoice at graphic depictions of women dying in childbirth like they do with men dying at war?

Justhadathought · 04/05/2020 11:26

It's nice to have a non-trans thread but then obviously that draws out the mras. I'm going to ice a cake

Any woman who has a different take on some things to you is automatically a men's rights activist Really? It must be like living in a fortress having such solidified views of the world and human relations. Any divergence is then seen as a threat.

Justhadathought · 04/05/2020 11:48

Ever since i set up a women's group, at college, aged 16...I've fielded, and defended from, accusations that feminism is just about" man hating". Of course it isn't, i'd say..it is just about pointing out oppressions and double standards women face purely on account of their sex.....and also the systems which perpetrate them. I still agree with that defence.....although now, almost 40 years later.......I've evolved and grown somewhat....as have many aspects of our particular society, at least.

My granddaughter is now growing up with notions that she can express all of her talents and enjoyments in life; and she is faced with women in a wide range of roles and occupations in a way I wasn't at her age.

Much else which is the same, or similar, I now tend to see as to some extent as having some degree of inevitability - due to sex differences which are innate or relatively freely chosen.

The rise of TRA ideology, and the whole trans 'non- debate' has highlighted this, and given reason to re-examine much of feminist dogma.....especially the dogmas in which all differences are socially constructed......and also the bits, and those few people, which are, very clearly, just hating of men/maleness in general......and which seem to be waging an eternal war of the sexes..

I wonder how those who argue like this, and who yet are married to men, or who have sons, can stomach the dissonance......

HorseRadishFemish · 04/05/2020 12:10

... it's like feeding something and then wondering why it keeps hanging around your garden...

We have a little black cat doing that right now, and yes we've been feeding it and built a little house for it to keep warm in at nights and have given him the name "chucky" and he's so cute but we're not exactly encouraging it.

Turns out the little fucker is a ruddy cat's rights activist.

HorseRadishFemish · 04/05/2020 12:11

...(not all cats are like that)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/05/2020 12:12

Cats are different, though. Cats are great and I'm very much in favor of encouraging them to stick around.

Helps that their meows rarely pass the thousand word limit too.

HorseRadishFemish · 04/05/2020 12:15

Too right.

RabidChinchilla · 04/05/2020 12:37

I wonder how those who argue like this, and who yet are married to men, or who have sons, can stomach the dissonance...

Their husbands probably live in fear of putting a foot wrong like my df does. My mother has always been a bit of a bully but is strangely unable to recognise it in herself despite being extremely quick to pull up others on it. Sadly no cognitive dissonance there.

Justhadathought · 04/05/2020 13:43

Sadly no cognitive dissonance there

Indeed! Or here. Just personal antipathy, hostility and intolerance of disagreement.

Thelnebriati · 04/05/2020 13:48

Women don't even have the right to a name for their own sex class, or to a discussion that isn't derided or disrupted.

Justhadathought · 04/05/2020 14:02

Cats are different, though. Cats are great and I'm very much in favor of encouraging them to stick around

...... and the great thing about living alone with cats is that they don't answer back. Purrfect

bundevac · 04/05/2020 14:58

"Men are not more vital to society than women, we could function just as well if those men were told to shield and they would be protected. Why aren't we doing that?"

because men are more disposable?

Thelnebriati · 04/05/2020 16:38

Are you saying the govt has decided men are more disposable? Or do you think its actually more likely this hasn't been discussed at all?

How many men will refuse to let go of their breadwinner status and take up the role of homemaker? And I mean actually do it, not demand their partner give them a list.

QuentinWinters · 04/05/2020 17:21

because men are more disposable?
I think it's more likely because the people in power are disproportionately in that group and can't bear to think they might be replaceable. So they can't countenance the idea of being told to stay at home.

RabidChinchilla · 04/05/2020 18:55

But surely people like Donald Trump etc don't pop down to Aldi to buy their own loo roll anyway?

Gronky · 04/05/2020 19:20

The breakdown for April isn't out yet but I think this puts the relative risk of sex and age in perspective. Each age grouping is 5 years.

“Women basically already have equal rights in the West”
bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 04/05/2020 22:00

But surely people like Donald Trump etc don't pop down to Aldi to buy their own loo roll anyway?

No, but if women show that we can do all of the public sphere stuff (i.e. the stuff that is deemed "important") whilst men take on the home sphere stuff (i.e. the stuff that is undervalued and trivialised) and the world carries on turning, people might get ideas about voting in female presidents and appointing female CEOs and stuff.

TehBewilderness · 04/05/2020 22:05

The men are the ones who are demonstrating in front of the state houses here in the US threatening to murder the governors if they continue with the lockdown, the lockdown that the men are violating with impunity.

Tiny Kitty showed up here four weeks ago, attached herself to my ankle and seamlessly took charge of the household, to the chagrin of Cotlette who is so jealous he cannot think what to do. She went into heat yesterday and is now driving us all quite mad.
Chick a pea studiously ignores her.

bundevac · 04/05/2020 22:08

"Are you saying the govt has decided men are more disposable?"

do you have an example when men and children are evacuated?

"How many men will refuse to let go of their breadwinner status and take up the role of homemaker? And I mean actually do it, not demand their partner give them a list."

no idea.

how many women actually want to be breadwinner? and i mean actually do it, working 70 hours per week plus 12 hours for commuting to work?