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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LIZ TRUSS AND CHILD TRANSGENDER HEALTH CARE

105 replies

LindaLeeDanvers · 24/04/2020 11:21

On Wednesday (22nd April) it was published in some of the LGBT+ news mediums that Liz Truss had given a statement to the Women’s and Equality Select committee regarding the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. In this she made 3 statements all of which raised concern within the trans community, though one caused serious concerns for transgender individuals all over the UK. She said;-

“Finally, which is not a direct issue concerning the Gender Recognition Act, but is relevant, making sure that the under 18s are protected from decisions that they could make, that are irreversible in the future. I believe strongly that adults should have the freedom to lead their lives as they see fit, but I think it’s very important that while people are still developing their decision-making capabilities that we protect them from making those irreversible decisions.”

Essentially spouting a line that gender critical people have been spouting for several years now, in essence saying that they don’t think those under the age of 18 should be allowed medical intervention. Things like puberty blockers to prevent transgender children from having to go through puberty, allowing them to buy more time to decide and to stop them having to go through something that does produce irreversible changes. Also stopping those who are normally 16 or over from being able to access cross sex hormones to allow them to go through puberty that aligns with their gender identity.

As these people think that the children who are coming out as transgender and seeking help for it are not actually transgender. They make claims such as they are just confused people who are taking the transgender path because of external pressure from websites and social media. Or that it’s the parents pushing their children to go down this path because it’s “trendy” and the parents of those children will be seen in a positive light.

But if you talk to any transgender person who is over 18, they will tell you that they did feel the same way as a child as they do as an adult. That their gender identity had developed when they were young, they just didn’t have the words to be able to express it back then or they feared how it would be handled if they had told people.

Though now society is more open about people being transgender, and there is much more information out there about it which allows young people to be able to express how they feel and feel confident to be able to come out to those around them. This being the case we are now seeing transgender people coming out at a younger age, rather than in later life as it had been in the past.

So this statement made by Liz Truss is rather alarming that she is actually considering taking steps to deny those under 18 access to medical treatment and would essentially force all transgender people to have to experience a puberty that conflicts with their gender identity. As someone who had to deal with that, to me forcing people to do it is a horrible thing to do. Because it causes so much mental anguish and does cause irreversible changes and in my honest opinion would be on par with torture due to the mental anguish it would cause.

When I first read this I sat and thought about it for a while and started to think about the legalities of doing such a thing and instantly a whole raft of things popped in to my head about how doing such a thing would clash with several UK laws that already exist.

The first thing that popped in to my head was Gillick competence, which is derived from the House of Lords Case Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech Area Health Authority [1985] UKHL 7, which sets in law the principle in this case that anyone under the age of 16 can provide legal consent for medical treatment if they can demonstrate that they understand the potential consequences of that treatment.

This on its own throws up the first legal issue that the government would have to deal with. A simple ban on anyone under the age of 18 accessing medical treatment specifically for treatments relating to gender identity, would be them saying that they agree with Gilick but not with regards to transgender people.

Which is direct discrimination against transgender people, and as such would allow for any trans person affected by this the ability to take the government to court using two possible methods. Those being either under the Equality Act 2010, which explicitly makes direct discrimination on the grounds of gender identity unlawful or an Article 14 claim (Prohibition of discrimination) alongside either Article 8 (Right to respect for private and family life) or Article 10 (Freedom of expression) using the Human Rights Act 1998.

Now the government in this situation could relatively easily deal with the Equality Act issue, by alongside the bit of legislation that they would need to introduce such a ban include an exemption amendment to the Equality act that says doing this would not be discrimination. That would then go along side all the other exemptions that there are in the Equality Act. Meaning that they would need two parliamentary votes to introduce a ban, and with a majority of 80 that is possible to do.

But the Human Rights Act is different; there is not a list of exemptions that they could simply add too. This would end up having to be decided by judges as if to they would consider such a ban to be discriminatory or not. Potentially going all the way through the British Judicial system and ending up in Strasbourg at the European Court of Human Rights for them to decide on the issue. Meaning that the decision would be made by people who didn’t have a political motive for deciding on it.

Now when it comes to Human Rights Law things get complicated if a government wishes to change or repeal it. As such actions could invoke the Sewel Convention, meaning that not only would the parliament in Westminster need to vote on any changes but the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would have a say in it. With any one of them being able to stop any change.

Then on top of that any changes to the Human Rights Act would directly impact The Good Friday Agreement, and changes to that need both the consent of the British Government and the Irish Government. This would require that part of the Good Friday Agreement to be re-negotiated and then ratified by both nations.

If all that was achieved the government would still be faced with the issue of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) to deal with. As while hypothetically changes to domestic Human Rights legislation is possible the ECHR has supremacy over domestic legislation and thus any decision on banning under 18’s from medical treatment was discriminatory would fall to the judges at the European Court of Human Rights.

Who have already said in L. v. Lithuania, that it is unlawful for governments to put undue restrictions on accessing services for the treatment of transgender people, so a blanket ban on treating under 18’s would do just that.

Therefore if Liz Truss wanted to introduce a ban on medical treatment for under 18’s in the UK she would have to do the following;-

First she would have to amend the Equalities Act to introduce a new exemption making it legal to discriminate against those under 18 in refusing them medical treatment. Then repeal the Human Rights Act, which in turn would trigger the Sewel Convention meaning that she would need to gain consent from the Devolved Parliament’s and hope that they all agree with her. After that she would then be left having to re-negotiate the Good Friday Agreement and get it ratified by both the UK Government and Irish Government. Then take the founding member state of the European Convention on Human Rights out of it so that the European Court of Human Rights couldn’t find against the UK government for discriminating against every transgender person under the age of 18.

Then she could introduce her discriminatory view on how to treat transgender people under the age of 18 in to UK law. Which while it is possible for her to do all off that, it is highly unlikely that there would not be some major opposition to it happening at any one of those steps.

Plus you would have to deal with the views of the public when they realised what you were doing, and the backlash there would be from groups who have won rights using Human Rights Legislation and how those rights could now be lost as a result of what she would have to do just to stop transgender teenagers and children from accessing medical help.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 15:02

Confusingly the author of the piece recognises about themself:

"Hell at 24 I had even planned out how my transition was going to go, what mile stone would happen by what age and how I would deal with them and so on and so forth. I was obsessed with being trans, it felt like it was my entire identity and nothing else mattered.

With the gift of hindsight I can see that I was very naïve, and although I was driven with my transition at the time. I was missing out on a whole lot of other things that I could have been doing at the same time, if I just had stopped for a moment and not been so obsessed with everything transgender." (continues)

There is a great deal of evidence about the impulse control & decision making processes which continue to evolve post 18 years to the mid twenties.

AnyOldPrion · 24/04/2020 15:07

From another page on the blog JustTurtles linked, page titled ‘Some things that have been annoying me of late’

’I have been lucky on this front and not received any abuse from the TERF’s on twitter even though it clearly states in my bio that I am Transgender.’

This doesn’t surprise me at all. Most gender critical women do not attack trans people. They attack opinions they disagree with.

So if you are not actively insisting that all trans people must be able to legally change sex without any gate keeping, or other controversial policies that are detrimental to women, it’s highly likely you will never be directly challenged.

This is because we are defending women’s rights and are not against transitioning/ed people in general.

popehilarious · 24/04/2020 15:10

Ah, yes, that blog explains a lot.

BacklashStarts · 24/04/2020 15:34

“Backlash, are you absolutely certain it’s Jasmine you’ve planted and not James? If you misgender your plants, they won’t thrive.” Grin

I’m afraid anyold that it’s Brighton LA issues woke badge fell off in transit so I have no idea of its pronouns so I’ve taken to using them all merged into one mega word.

Datun · 24/04/2020 15:48

That blog is...illuminating.

Lots of hot tubbing in bikini bottoms & camping in zipped together sleeping bags with the girls.

It's so predictable.

I genuinely, sincerely hope that transactivists push back at Liz Truss with every weapon at their disposal.

No debate, as a tactic, was useful, despite the 'staring you in the face' agenda. Fortunately, it can't go on forever. And now with the tide is turning, debate is happening everywhere.

AnyOldPrion · 24/04/2020 15:48

OP, if you’re still reading: another comment that touched a nerve from the same page Rowantrees quoted from.

’Outside of term time I would still go occasional to trans bars, but I was starting to feel out of place in them. As while there was the odd trans woman in them who I would talk to, the vast majority of the clientele were transvestites and pervy men looking for sex with trans people;’

This!

This is one of the major problems with current transactivism.

Was there a time when the trans community was dominated by people like you OP? Those who went through a genuine transitioning process?

You were allowed into women’s spaces and few people objected.

Now transactivists are insisting women must accept those transvestites into our spaces. Good chance a number of pervy men will also take advantage of any legal loophole that they find.

That’s why women are objecting now.

Datun · 24/04/2020 15:53

Also, from a legal point of view, how can it be discriminatory towards trans children to not give them puberty blockers/opposite sex hormones, when you would not give puberty blockers/hormones willy nilly to non trans children either.

What about children with gender dysphoria who don't say they are trans? If you wouldn't give them the drugs, then it's not discriminatory.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 16:03

Was there a time when the trans community was dominated by people like you OP? Those who went through a genuine transitioning process?

You were allowed into women’s spaces and few people objected.

Its of course not known how many lesbians & other women objected to the male author of the blogpost being in their female spaces etc
Nor how many of the women objected to pervy males looking for sex with lesian people

AnyOldPrion · 24/04/2020 16:38

Its of course not known how many lesbians & other women objected to the male author of the blogpost being in their female spaces

Yes to this. There may, of course, have been women who walked away, or felt unable to join in. We can’t know, and OP can’t be certain either.

But I was mostly struck by the fact that the OP (assuming they wrote the blog) had recognized on a personal level that their community had changed to something they represented as unwholesome, but not then extrapolated that recognition to an understanding of why women might feel threatened by a change that OP found unpalatable themselves.

I got the impression that the mindset ‘T*RFs are monsters’ was so ingrained that no consideration was given as to why women might have a genuine grievance about the massively changed ‘trans community’ being forced on us.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 16:54

Worth remembering that heavily male dominated groups decided for other men that they 'could' use women's single sex spaces and should do so. Women were not consulted or at any point considered in this process.

Heavily dominated male parliament and house of lord decided for other men that they could legally become female based on a bunch of sexist stereotypes. They considered the negative impact on females a bit at this point, but decided it would probably never happen and anyway, it saved them having to legalise gay marriage. Hansard record documents this. Women were not consulted in this really quite staggeringly paternalistic process.

Men decided that women's spaces were theirs to give to other men, there was no need to even bother consulting women on this.

No one knows how many female people have quietly left facilities in the last few years. No one ever checked the impact. No one ever thought the experience of female people in this was worth considering.

So the kind of argument Debbie Hayton often represents - which I understand, because of course Debbie stands up for Debbie's own needs and own agenda- of keeping strong gatekeeping so that only some males get to use female only spaces is not an altruistic one. It's not concerned at all with females, their needs, their experience, but in preserving the preferred experience for those males, and limiting how pissed off females get about it. Check through some of the threads here and look at the sexism and paternalism involved in the polite message of 'I know it makes you uncomfortable, I know you don't like it, I know you can't use that facility now, but I want to so I will'. A powerful belief that the primary owner and controller of female spaces is men, and that it's not the place of females to do anything more than what they're told.

The ship of some males using single sex spaces has long since sailed. Third spaces. A return to strongly preserved female only spaces. A firm stance against what is just basic, bog standard male supremacism, and not living in a country where females are the second class citizens.

TopBitchoftheWitches · 24/04/2020 16:58

Is the op the flying lawyer?

teawamutu · 24/04/2020 17:00

Or they just didn't care? We're just the support humans, after all. Not actual people.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 24/04/2020 17:02

Is the op the flying lawyer?
No. Seems to be another person who identifies similarly.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 17:41

Men decided that women's spaces were theirs to give to other men, there was no need to even bother consulting women on this.

No one knows how many female people have quietly left facilities in the last few years. No one ever checked the impact. No one ever thought the experience of female people in this was worth considering.

The male doctors who are described as gatekeepers of the desired surgeries hormones tasked their male patients with using female spaces whilst performing sexist stereotypes & provided them with permission letters incase of challenge.

These (mostly) male doctors actually assumed the role of gatekeepers to female single sex spaces & proceeded to open them up to their male patients.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 18:28

August 2018 Lisa Muggeridge: Social work training: Ever present risk of predatory behaviour

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FLd0kp_5do

StarintheMorning · 24/04/2020 19:00

R0wantrees thank you for the link to the wonderfulLisa Muggeridge.

She talks total sense.

teawamutu · 24/04/2020 20:11

The male doctors who are described as gatekeepers of the desired surgeries hormones tasked their male patients with using female spaces whilst performing sexist stereotypes & provided them with permission letters incase of challenge.

I pointed out to one of the most prominent of these doctors on Twitter that he'd never once thought to check that women were ok with this.

He didn't respond, weirdly.

2ndStar · 24/04/2020 23:39

If anyone can find an under 18 who has been deemed Gillick competent to be sterilised for any reason other than transgender I’d be interested. Cancer treatment where it is an unwanted side effect is not relevant. No teenager boy or girl would be allowed to be purposefully sterilised unless they identify as trans. Which makes no sense, what’s different that means a child suddenly has capacity to make that decision? Tokophobia would not result in approval for sterilisation.

2ndStar · 24/04/2020 23:51

I’m sick of hearing the argument about it’s been happening for years, what changed.

What changed was the attitude from these are women’s spaces and an understanding that a male presence in them was disruptive and the disrupter was responsible for mitigating the impact.

This has evolved to a perceived entitlement to women’s spaces, legislative capture, eroding women as a class, replacing the word woman with people from products and medical care that are only relevant to women and wholesale coordinated terrorising of women who so much as blink at the thought of a male in a female single sex space.

That’s what changed. Women are reacting to change not leading it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2020 10:02

I genuinely, sincerely hope that transactivists push back at Liz Truss with every weapon at their disposal.

They will. Negative attention is still attention.

BacklashStarts · 25/04/2020 17:53

Liz Truss is many things, but she is not a wimp. She won’t give a shit about some spotty herberts on the Internet slagging her off and she’s exactly the sort of woman to think ‘oh you want a fight do you? I’ll give you a fight.’ I’m no fan of hers but if they think they’ve chosen a soft target they’ve got another thing coming.

Porridgeoat · 25/04/2020 22:32

watching and waiting without medical intervention is best practice. Only a percentage of young people will remain trans into adulthood. We have an obligation to safeguard children. Best offer them counselling to get to the route cause of their discomfort with their own body.

DickKerrLadies · 26/04/2020 08:13

HAS THE OP COME BACK YET?

DO WE STILL HAVE TO SHOUT?

HorseRadishFemish · 26/04/2020 08:22

Laughed out loud at that, Dick!

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