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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LIZ TRUSS AND CHILD TRANSGENDER HEALTH CARE

105 replies

LindaLeeDanvers · 24/04/2020 11:21

On Wednesday (22nd April) it was published in some of the LGBT+ news mediums that Liz Truss had given a statement to the Women’s and Equality Select committee regarding the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. In this she made 3 statements all of which raised concern within the trans community, though one caused serious concerns for transgender individuals all over the UK. She said;-

“Finally, which is not a direct issue concerning the Gender Recognition Act, but is relevant, making sure that the under 18s are protected from decisions that they could make, that are irreversible in the future. I believe strongly that adults should have the freedom to lead their lives as they see fit, but I think it’s very important that while people are still developing their decision-making capabilities that we protect them from making those irreversible decisions.”

Essentially spouting a line that gender critical people have been spouting for several years now, in essence saying that they don’t think those under the age of 18 should be allowed medical intervention. Things like puberty blockers to prevent transgender children from having to go through puberty, allowing them to buy more time to decide and to stop them having to go through something that does produce irreversible changes. Also stopping those who are normally 16 or over from being able to access cross sex hormones to allow them to go through puberty that aligns with their gender identity.

As these people think that the children who are coming out as transgender and seeking help for it are not actually transgender. They make claims such as they are just confused people who are taking the transgender path because of external pressure from websites and social media. Or that it’s the parents pushing their children to go down this path because it’s “trendy” and the parents of those children will be seen in a positive light.

But if you talk to any transgender person who is over 18, they will tell you that they did feel the same way as a child as they do as an adult. That their gender identity had developed when they were young, they just didn’t have the words to be able to express it back then or they feared how it would be handled if they had told people.

Though now society is more open about people being transgender, and there is much more information out there about it which allows young people to be able to express how they feel and feel confident to be able to come out to those around them. This being the case we are now seeing transgender people coming out at a younger age, rather than in later life as it had been in the past.

So this statement made by Liz Truss is rather alarming that she is actually considering taking steps to deny those under 18 access to medical treatment and would essentially force all transgender people to have to experience a puberty that conflicts with their gender identity. As someone who had to deal with that, to me forcing people to do it is a horrible thing to do. Because it causes so much mental anguish and does cause irreversible changes and in my honest opinion would be on par with torture due to the mental anguish it would cause.

When I first read this I sat and thought about it for a while and started to think about the legalities of doing such a thing and instantly a whole raft of things popped in to my head about how doing such a thing would clash with several UK laws that already exist.

The first thing that popped in to my head was Gillick competence, which is derived from the House of Lords Case Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech Area Health Authority [1985] UKHL 7, which sets in law the principle in this case that anyone under the age of 16 can provide legal consent for medical treatment if they can demonstrate that they understand the potential consequences of that treatment.

This on its own throws up the first legal issue that the government would have to deal with. A simple ban on anyone under the age of 18 accessing medical treatment specifically for treatments relating to gender identity, would be them saying that they agree with Gilick but not with regards to transgender people.

Which is direct discrimination against transgender people, and as such would allow for any trans person affected by this the ability to take the government to court using two possible methods. Those being either under the Equality Act 2010, which explicitly makes direct discrimination on the grounds of gender identity unlawful or an Article 14 claim (Prohibition of discrimination) alongside either Article 8 (Right to respect for private and family life) or Article 10 (Freedom of expression) using the Human Rights Act 1998.

Now the government in this situation could relatively easily deal with the Equality Act issue, by alongside the bit of legislation that they would need to introduce such a ban include an exemption amendment to the Equality act that says doing this would not be discrimination. That would then go along side all the other exemptions that there are in the Equality Act. Meaning that they would need two parliamentary votes to introduce a ban, and with a majority of 80 that is possible to do.

But the Human Rights Act is different; there is not a list of exemptions that they could simply add too. This would end up having to be decided by judges as if to they would consider such a ban to be discriminatory or not. Potentially going all the way through the British Judicial system and ending up in Strasbourg at the European Court of Human Rights for them to decide on the issue. Meaning that the decision would be made by people who didn’t have a political motive for deciding on it.

Now when it comes to Human Rights Law things get complicated if a government wishes to change or repeal it. As such actions could invoke the Sewel Convention, meaning that not only would the parliament in Westminster need to vote on any changes but the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would have a say in it. With any one of them being able to stop any change.

Then on top of that any changes to the Human Rights Act would directly impact The Good Friday Agreement, and changes to that need both the consent of the British Government and the Irish Government. This would require that part of the Good Friday Agreement to be re-negotiated and then ratified by both nations.

If all that was achieved the government would still be faced with the issue of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) to deal with. As while hypothetically changes to domestic Human Rights legislation is possible the ECHR has supremacy over domestic legislation and thus any decision on banning under 18’s from medical treatment was discriminatory would fall to the judges at the European Court of Human Rights.

Who have already said in L. v. Lithuania, that it is unlawful for governments to put undue restrictions on accessing services for the treatment of transgender people, so a blanket ban on treating under 18’s would do just that.

Therefore if Liz Truss wanted to introduce a ban on medical treatment for under 18’s in the UK she would have to do the following;-

First she would have to amend the Equalities Act to introduce a new exemption making it legal to discriminate against those under 18 in refusing them medical treatment. Then repeal the Human Rights Act, which in turn would trigger the Sewel Convention meaning that she would need to gain consent from the Devolved Parliament’s and hope that they all agree with her. After that she would then be left having to re-negotiate the Good Friday Agreement and get it ratified by both the UK Government and Irish Government. Then take the founding member state of the European Convention on Human Rights out of it so that the European Court of Human Rights couldn’t find against the UK government for discriminating against every transgender person under the age of 18.

Then she could introduce her discriminatory view on how to treat transgender people under the age of 18 in to UK law. Which while it is possible for her to do all off that, it is highly unlikely that there would not be some major opposition to it happening at any one of those steps.

Plus you would have to deal with the views of the public when they realised what you were doing, and the backlash there would be from groups who have won rights using Human Rights Legislation and how those rights could now be lost as a result of what she would have to do just to stop transgender teenagers and children from accessing medical help.

OP posts:
BacklashStarts · 24/04/2020 13:04

@GirlsInGreen jasmine drinks water but it is a fussy flower anyway. Or that’s what I fine.

GirlsInGreen · 24/04/2020 13:08

@BacklashStarts - I had a honeysuckle there for years but it finally gave up the ghost and became awful woody - i'll be more vigilant with the water and see how it goes!

Datun · 24/04/2020 13:11

One thing is for sure, Liz Truss has certainly lit a touchpaper, here.

The conflagration is going to be very, very informative.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 13:16

Essentially spouting a line that gender critical people have been spouting for several years now, in essence saying that they don’t think those under the age of 18 should be allowed medical intervention. Things like puberty blockers to prevent transgender children from having to go through puberty, allowing them to buy more time to decide and to stop them having to go through something that does produce irreversible changes.

Why would so many adults who are neither parent, caregiver or GP want to stop children they are not related to going through puberty?

Liz Truss read a prepared succinct statement summary (three principles) concerning the Westminster govenrment's GRA consultation which took place in 2018.

Hardly 'spouting'

Professor Carl Heneghan (lead Oxford Evidence Based Medicine) made clear his evidence-based concerns about the prescription of medication colloquially described as 'puberty blockers' & cross sex hormones to children (under 18 years). Prof Heneghan's concerns were covered over a year ago in BBC Panorama & mainstream newspapers & his co-authored evidence review published in the BMJ.

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518188-BMJ-Prof-Carl-Heneghan-Evidence-Based-Medicine-Oxford-Panorama-Trans-Kids-Gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-Evidence-review-concludes-There-are-significant-problems

AnyOldPrion · 24/04/2020 13:16

Backlash, are you absolutely certain it’s Jasmine you’ve planted and not James? If you misgender your plants, they won’t thrive.

eeyore228 · 24/04/2020 13:17

You may want to look at those who regret transitioning and now not only regret the decision but also feel particularly wronged by the NHS for allowing it to happen. It is not an easy situation and certainly not straightforward.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/04/2020 13:21

'Spouted'? Odd choice of verb, isn't it?

Well, no doubt we'll see how this all plays out in the courts and parliament. I really look forward to evidence based arguments, including independent enquiries.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 13:25

making sure that the under 18s are protected from decisions that they could make, that are irreversible in the future. I believe strongly that adults should have the freedom to lead their lives as they see fit, but I think it’s very important that while people are still developing their decision-making capabilities that we protect them from making those irreversible decisions

Its concerning when some adults& organisations seek to reject what are fundamental principles of Child Safeguarding. Safeguarding frameworks also apply to Vulnerable Adults.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 13:32

In this she made 3 statements all of which raised concern within the trans community, though one caused serious concerns for transgender individuals all over the UK.

They were:

  1. the protection of single-sex spaces, which is extremely important.

  2. making sure that transgender adults are free to live their lives as they wish without fear of persecution, whilst maintaining the proper checks and balances in the system.

  3. The Safeguarding of children identified as transgender

Hmm
Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 13:33

OP hasn't been back I see?

That read like a party political broadcast. Or a kite.

Winesalot · 24/04/2020 13:37

I would really like to have the question answered as to who ultimately benefits a person whose puberty has been prevented and then who receives cross sex hormones with drugs that have adverse side effects that constantly get minimised?

Oh!, and where are the independently collected stats on detransitioners that have been published and peer reviewed?

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 13:41

This on its own throws up the first legal issue that the government would have to deal with. A simple ban on anyone under the age of 18 accessing medical treatment specifically for treatments relating to gender identity, would be them saying that they agree with Gilick but not with regards to transgender people.

Or alternatively that the 'transgender community' do not agree that the same Safeguarding & Duty of Care responsibilities apply to children identified as 'trans'?

MollyButton · 24/04/2020 14:04

If my young teen daughter wanted surgery to enlarge her breasts, or change her nose shape or even reduce breast size. Then the first reaction would not by me or medical professionals to just do what she wants. That is a normal level of health care.
In fact most cosmetic surgeons offering some kind of plastic surgery will carry out some form of appraisal and counselling about the procedure, and should not go ahead if you don't seem competent to understand the consequences/side effects and make the decision.
For a teen coming with such requests I would hope the first action would be counselling not surgery.
But if they are talking about Trans - then you believe a whole other series of principles should come into play. So my daughter saying she hates her breasts because boys stare at her should lead to counselling. But if she says she hates them because she is really a boy - then she should get puberty blockers?

Nevermind when you are talking about children.
My real DD when she was 2/3 wanted to be "a waterfall" when she grew up. No one said that maybe she was a waterfall born in the wrong body.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 24/04/2020 14:08

OP appears to be simply a copy of this blogpost:
elisabethmcqueen.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/liz-truss-and-child-transgender-health-care/

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 14:18

On Wednesday (22nd April) it was published in some of the LGBT+ news mediums that Liz Truss had given a statement to the Women’s and Equality Select committee regarding the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act. In this she made 3 statements all of which raised concern within the trans community, though one caused serious concerns for transgender individuals all over the UK.

Transgender Trend:

'Our response to the statement by Liz Truss MP to the Women and Equalities Select Committee'
(extract)
"We are pleased to see the safety and welfare of children and young people prioritised, as it should be in all policy and legislation decisions taken by government.

There is a need to pause and take stock of developments in child and adolescent gender care, given the serious concerns expressed by clinicians last year about the harms being done to children in service of demands made by activists. We need to be cautious about giving children rights that take away their protections. If we do not exercise normal clinical standards of care mistakes will inevitably be made, with lifelong consequences for young people who are just starting out in life.

We are pleased that the Minister recognises the need to take into account the developmental stage of young people when assessing their ability to fully consent to serious and irreversible medical interventions. The unprecedented number of teenage girls transitioning has already resulted in an increase in the number of young women speaking out about their regret, including Keira Bell who has taken her case to the High Court.

We hope that the Minister for Women and Equalities will strengthen existing NHS child and adolescent mental health service provision and inject the funding necessary to ensure proper therapeutic pathways for all young people who struggle with gender dysphoria. Medical intervention should not be the first resort in the treatment of a young person’s psychological distress, which often goes hand-in-hand with underlying mental health problems or neurobiological conditions.

We also hope that the Minister for Women and Equalities will investigate the teaching of ‘gender identity’ in schools as part of the remit to protect children and young people. A self-ID system has been established in schools by means of the ‘affirmation’ approach towards children with gender dysphoria and policies based on identity in place of sex. We do not have such a system in society and it should not be used for children who are less able to critically appraise what they are being taught.

We would like to see an investigation into how this adult theoretical model of ‘gender’ has been allowed to be imposed on children through the education system. There is no evidence to support the ‘affirmation’ approach in schools. The protection of children must include protection from adult concepts presented to them as fact, before children have the developmental capacity to distinguish between reality and the strongly-held beliefs of well-meaning adults." (continues)
www.transgendertrend.com/statement-liz-truss-women-equalities-select-committee/

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 24/04/2020 14:24

The basic legal errors and tone of the original poster tell me that most of the post was probably cut and pasted from somewhere presumably in an ill judged attempt to imply that the law will never allow under age children to be protected from damaging irreversible treatment.

OP maybe you thought you would intimidate mumsnetters. As with most trolls who occasionally post on here you got it horribly horribly wrong.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 24/04/2020 14:25

Rowantrees you’re amazing!

Zomblie · 24/04/2020 14:28

Things you are not allowed to do til you are 18:

Drink alcohol
Vote
Smoke
Get married (without parental permission)
Sign a legal contract
Gamble

Apparently people under 18 aren't grown up or responsible enough to do those things...

Not being able to irrevocably change ones body with incredibly harmful treatments based purely on over-active teenaged hormones and angst seems like a good thing to include in that list also.

Winesalot · 24/04/2020 14:28

Ahh!! Thanks justturtles!

That’s disappointing LindaLeeDanvers. Or you were doing a sense check for your blog post?

Lamahaha · 24/04/2020 14:30

OP maybe you thought you would intimidate mumsnetters. As with most trolls who occasionally post on here you got it horribly horribly wrong.

Yes, silly mums. They should stick to talking about potty training and prams.

Winesalot · 24/04/2020 14:31

Surely there must be lots of disappointment when nothing screenshot worthy comes of so much effort.

However, this thread provides some good information in light of Liz Truss’s announcement. So good job on that front.

Lamahaha · 24/04/2020 14:32

Well spotted, Turtles. A clean C&P.

PurpleCrowbarWhereIsLangCleg · 24/04/2020 14:33

That blog is...illuminating.

Lots of hot tubbing in bikini bottoms & camping in zipped together sleeping bags with the girls.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 14:41

OP appears to be simply a copy of this blogpost:

Legal experience background to the author :

(extract)
"It was then in my final year of university that I got a job as a personal assistant to one of the university lecturers, who also ran a charity that gave out legal advice to transgender people. So aside from all the PA stuff, I was also trusted in giving out legal advice to trans people as I was doing a law degree and it was coming to its completion.

This also made me dip my toe’s back in to transgender stuff, as I did my university dissertation on the evolution of British Law for transgender people. I did this because I was working giving out legal advice on this topic, and I thought that it might be helpful for me to do it. Indeed it was rather enjoyable doing the dissertation, as it was a socio-legal one. Looking at social aspects as well as legal ones, so I managed to wangle in watching several movies to see how the portrayal of trans people had changed over time, along with the legal advances.

When I finished my degree I carried on with this job, as it was fascinating and allowed me to see a whole sort of different things. For me it also opened my eyes, as my transition had been relatively easy, I hadn’t faced any discrimination or prejudice. But doing this job I was exposed to people who were having to deal with just that.

The person I was working for was considered one of the eminent experts of trans people and the law, so I got some opportunities that other people would kill for. I got to work on trans policy with the likes of The Home Office, Women’s Aid, The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) but to name a few.

It also got to the point where he became confident in my understanding of the law relating to trans people that I was allowed to go and do public talks on it to groups on my own, on his behalf" (continues)

elisabethmcqueen.wordpress.com/2020/02/23/15-years-since-i-transitioned/

Mentored by Stephen Whittle? Hmm

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

Winesalot · 24/04/2020 14:52

For me it also opened my eyes, as my transition had been relatively easy, I hadn’t faced any discrimination or prejudice.

So the mental anguish and torture was an embellishment?

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