Can someone please help me out with pronouns

[Lollygaggles]

So how do I stand in terms of the current legislation, if I refer to a person by the pronouns of their birth, rather than their preferred pronouns?

Would it be compelled speech to be forced to collude with a belief that I do not accept? Also, how does my freedom not to be discriminated against because of my beliefs ( ie that people can't change sex) play out against the protections of Gender Reassignment and the trans person's rights as a legal member of the opposite sex ( though not a biological one.)

Would I be acting in a discriminatory way under the EA by referring to a person as their birth sex, when they have transitioned?

I want to be able to articulate my position very clearly, with reference to the law, but I don't actually know where we are as the law stands on competing rights.

Can anyone help me unpick it please?

Don't use pronouns if there is a disagreement over the meaning?

Don't know about law but it sounds like a position which should offend neither party?

No case law either way.

Thanks both of you. I am really pissed off about this, but will just have to keep repeating their name then I suppose. I hope Liz Truss's recommendations clear up some of the ambiguities of the law.

My understanding is that it depends if you are at work or not.
Its not a breach of the Equality Act when its between individuals outside of the workplace as you are an individual, not acting as an employee or employer; and it should not be recorded as a hate incident unless it is part of a pattern of deliberate harassment or bullying.

My understanding is it's complicated, as PP says there is no case law (yet).

The teenage carer who asked if the community police officer was a "he or she" or "boy or girl" or whatever it was, was fined and it wasn't challenged. I'd need to look it up again but there is a thread on it and I think it was recorded as a 'hate Crime'. Poor kid.

It appears that judges can force you into compelled speech when under oath too...

My view is if you use the name of the person and avoid pronouns altogether, whilst the sentences are clumsy and it's pretty obvious you're avoiding pronouns, it would be difficult to challenge...as you are avoiding pronouns, preferred or otherwise.

Personally I like using surnames.

Stay safe OP.

My view is if you use the name of the person and avoid pronouns altogether, whilst the sentences are clumsy and it's pretty obvious you're avoiding pronouns, it would be difficult to challenge...as you are avoiding pronouns, preferred or otherwise.

Mine too.

I'm very sorry I can't recall his name (am Australian, so only saw the story here, I think) but there was a high-school teacher in UK, who was reported and sanctioned for "refusing to" use pronouns demanded by a [trans-identifying student's].

The teacher defended himself against the moves by the student's family and supporters to have him sacked, by saying his Christian religious beliefs are that he shouldn't lie, that girls aren't boys, and that kindness is important, so his approach had been to compromise- By not referring to the student using grammatically correct [eg she- female sex, not claimed gender or other personality traits] pronouns that would upset the kid, but also not lying, against objective reality, his conscience and beliefs. So he used the student's name but unfortunately slipped up a few times and said "she" and "her".

Fortunately, the parents and the school took into consideration the teacher's apologies and genuine attempts to be decent and try find a way to respect both sets of personal beliefs/ethics, and ruled that he should try harder to not say she/her, and that the student would need to accept that changing the language one speaks, especially when counter-intuitive, is not easy, so appreciate he's trying and understand he's just human.

Except.. Of course that didn't happen. He was portrayed as a nasty Christian bigot and ultimately lost his job, for "refusing to use" certain pronouns. Avoiding is considered as offensive as using the correct, sexes pronouns, rather than the ones demanded. I'm not sure if any appeal happened, or how it might have gone for him.

Oh come on how many trans people do you come across everyday? They're a minority. And if you're getting so close that you're having regular conversations I'm sure they'll let you know. If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa. Most trans people are not as anal and arsey as you though. They probably just want to get on with their lives.

If only the above were true. It's not, though.

*They probably just want to get in with their lives.
*
As do we limp, as do we.

But I don't think defending free speech and ensuring that I am not being coerced into compelled speech is being anal and arsey.

You may think that though and you have every right to think that and every right to say it.

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa.

Are you suggesting that we should make assumptions about how people want to be referred to based on the way they dress? That seems a bit regressive. Most of us have moved on from the 1950s.

Most trans people are not as anal and arsey as you though. They probably just want to get on with their lives.

So they don't care about trivial stuff like what pronouns people use when referring to them? That's good to know.

How many trans people do you know, ProdigalKittens? Rather fewer than I do, I would guess? How do you justify your statistical comment about the correctness or otherwise of limpbizkit’s comment, which seems correct to me.

Most trans people of my acquaintance would regard someone of the OP’s persuasion with sadness for someone so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with.

I do want to know where we stand legally. I hate the idea that legally I can't speak truthfully.

Anyone who works in a secondary school will now be coming across this issue frequently. It's not a theoretical question, it's about how we treat people in society.

Do we force adults to pretend a girl is "he"?

Do we force adults to pretend teenagers/children really "know" they are the opposite sex?

Do we force adults to pretend that changing sex is possible, normal and safe?

It's scary what messages compliant adults are giving to all young people.

Oh, Robin is back and still trying to goad people into a quotably angry response. Better luck next time?

Robin, you did not answer my question on that other thread. Why are questions so hard for you?

Oops! There is another one...

They key point is that he/she her/him pronouns are used ABOUT a person not TO a person. We used to the hear the phrase “Who’s she? The cat’s mother?” as it is rude to say ‘she’ when the person is there - it’s just normal good manners that their name should be used in these circs. And when they’re not there I can say whatever the f* I want, because they aren’t part of the discussion- it’s none of their business.

How often are you using he or she to this persons face? Shouldn't really be too hard to avoid offending them if you want to. If you can't then you should probably distance yourself from them rather than upset them.

In my work this would not be acceptable. In my social circle we would think you're a very rude.

Even if you disagree with the concept can you not sympathise that the person is struggling with their own life and address them as they wish.

I wonder what Batman thinks.

(Batmen are men, presumably?)

Batpersons, possibly, if we want to be kind?

(Given the current coronavirus situation it might be considered a bit inflammatory to refer to anyone as bat adjacent.)

I am allowed to refer to eg The Queen as ‘her maj’ in private convo but if she was present I wouldn’t!

So robin thinks we should change the pronouns based on dress?

Or only on the dress of men?

Could robin advise what dress I would be wearing to be consider a he rather than a her? For example yesterday when all my clothes (undies excluded, males bras are few and far between ) were from a men's dept ?

Not that I mind which pronouns people use to be fair, I show my female conditioning strongly at this point and let the speaker chose what is comfortable for them rather than insist what the speaker should say

It's scary what messages compliant adults are giving to all young people.

What scary like Coronavirus?

I agree testing. This isn't just a question of respecting people we disagree with, as Robin says. It's about being honest with children about what is and isn't possible. It's about recognising the experiences of those whose close relatives have decided they want to be viewed as the opposite sex. It's about how this notion that people are free to choose their sex impacts society as a whole.

What scary like Coronavirus?

Um, no. Coronavirus is a disease, it might kill you.

Having false beliefs spread through society with risk of being charged with a hate crime is a different type of scary.