Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can someone please help me out with pronouns

281 replies

Lollygaggles · 23/04/2020 21:27

So how do I stand in terms of the current legislation, if I refer to a person by the pronouns of their birth, rather than their preferred pronouns?

Would it be compelled speech to be forced to collude with a belief that I do not accept? Also, how does my freedom not to be discriminated against because of my beliefs ( ie that people can't change sex) play out against the protections of Gender Reassignment and the trans person's rights as a legal member of the opposite sex ( though not a biological one.)

Would I be acting in a discriminatory way under the EA by referring to a person as their birth sex, when they have transitioned?

I want to be able to articulate my position very clearly, with reference to the law, but I don't actually know where we are as the law stands on competing rights.

Can anyone help me unpick it please?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
not2daysanta · 24/04/2020 20:39

If only there was a recent case that covered this...

My my. We do have short memories, don’t we?

TehBewilderness · 24/04/2020 21:21

The ambiguity is whether there is something in their brain that genuinely makes them feel this way (science is not yet conclusive on this I think) and the question is how we react to it. Certainly some of the TRAs are bonkers, but I feel like I’d be inclined to go along with somebody’s pronouns if they seemed genuine and not on a power trip/manipulative.

Is there any limit to the delusions you advocate the public go along with to make the delusional feel validated? You can see the anorexia analogy coming, I think.

midgebabe · 24/04/2020 21:26

I have to say that my experience suggests that not "supporting the delusion" is beneficial to the person who is having brain /body disconnect problems . Helps you sort your head out

MissHoskins · 24/04/2020 21:35

Born in the wrong body is ridiculous. Spermatozoa meets ova. Ova is fertilised,Ova and sperm then develop into a foetus. Foetus then develops into a baby, in the womb of the female that's gestating the foetus. The baby is born either vaginally or by abdominal surgery from the Female body that has gestated the baby.
At what point did the foetus change it's body? How did the foetus change it's body?
Was there another body hiding in the womb? How did the foetus end up in the wrong body?
The foetus doesn't leave the womb until it's born so how can it change bodies in the womb?
The womb doesn't have a large choice of bodies, it's not like a pick and mix.
I really don't understand these born in the wrong body statements . They're nonsensical. You literally cannot be born in the wrong body.

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 21:54

Question:
Why should anyone get to dictate to another how that person must refer to them? Or be punished by law?

Is that a right extended to absolutely anyone?

Can I be called Joan of Arc?

Please and thanks.

midgebabe · 24/04/2020 21:58

Course you can Joan

midgebabe · 24/04/2020 21:59

But don't expect it to be ok on your passeport

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 22:13

But don't expect it to be ok on your passeport

Even if I’ve lived as a Saint for all my life and all my family and friends recognise me as Joan?

Please advise.

MrsKypp · 24/04/2020 22:16

At least in English we only need to consider he/she and him/her.

In other languages there are noun, verb, adjective agreements, and lots of other grammatical etc differences according to the sex of the person concerned. How they do that with transgender I don't know. It must take a LOT of concentration not to go wrong!

midgebabe · 24/04/2020 22:20

Define living as a saint.

Explain how I , as a passport monitor, would I know that you had lived as a saint , given that a passeport officer is b6 nature suspicious

HedgeWitch79 · 24/04/2020 22:22

I'm Equality and Diversity Officer for my employer (a large NGO) so hopefully can shed a little light here on where you'd stand.

Firstly, it's not illegal to refuse to use someone's pronouns. There is no such crime in itself. However, if your refusal to use someone's pronouns can be shown to be part of a general pattern of hostile and/or discriminatory behaviour towards this individual because of their trans status, or towards trans people in general, then that is illegal. And to be honest, a deliberate refusal to use someone's pronouns does unavoidably come across as rude, as potentially hostile, as designed to make someone feel uncomfortable, or to draw attention to the fact they are trans, and it would be very difficult for you to argue otherwise. So while it's not illegal in itself, if things did escalate to a complaint, it could certainly be used as evidence that you have a generally negative attitude towards trans people. Needless to say, that wouldn't look great for your case.

It's worth remembering that different legislation applies depending on who this person is and what your relationship with them is. If you are an employer or a service provider to this person, then the Equality Act 2010 applies, under which gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. Again, the EA doesn't specifically say anything about pronouns, but again, refusal to respect pronouns could be used as evidence against you as part of a wider case. It would be difficult to argue that you are not discriminatory towards trans people if you persistently refuse to respect their identities, for example.

I'm not sure why you referenced the EA guidance on single sex spaces - that doesn't seem relevant here, unless there is an issue of space usage at play? Remember that even if you have reasonable grounds to exclude a trans person from a single sex space, you still can't discriminate against them for being trans - and in fact your refusal to respect their identity could be taken as evidence your exclusion is based purely on discrimination and therefore not reasonable under the EA. If a service provider excludes trans people from a single sex provision, the onus is on them to prove this is reasonable should they be challenged. Again, evidence of previous prejudice against trans people just for being trans would count against you here.

If this person is someone you work with, even if your behaviour does not break criminal law, you might well find you are in breach of your employer's policies on equality and diversity and/or bullying and harassment. Your employer therefore may have grounds to take disciplinary action against you. In an extreme case, they could even fire you, and there is legal precedent for this in the Maya Forstater case where the judge upheld her employer's decision not to renew her contract because of her anti-trans views. The wording of this judgement is worth paying attention to - critically, it wasn't Forstater's beliefs that made it reasonable to fire her, but rather it was the way she expressed them. In short, the judge said she was perfectly entitled to her beliefs about sex and gender, but her beliefs did not make it okay for her to be directly rude or hostile towards trans colleagues. (And again, persistently and deliberately using pronouns you know someone dislikes does unavoidably come across as rude and hostile, and it would be very difficult to argue convincingly otherwise)

So given all that, the real question is, is there actually a reason why you can't just use this person's preferred pronouns? Is there a particular reason you want to be rude to this person, or to make them feel uncomfortable, or to keep drawing attention to the fact they are trans? Do you really think your personal beliefs about sex and gender are always more important than anyone else's right to a little bit of politeness, privacy and dignity? If this person is just trying to live their life and get on with stuff and you're going around deliberately making things uncomfortable or difficult for them, even if that's not actually a crime, it's still pretty rubbish behaviour - and, should there ever be a formal dispute between you, it's pretty clear evidence of your general bad attitude towards trans people, which is not going to do your case any favours at all.

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 22:25

Define living as a saint.

Well, being “saintly”.

Are you being saint-phobic?

midgebabe · 24/04/2020 22:26

You make the assumption of gender reassignment?

midgebabe · 24/04/2020 22:27

Are you accusing me of being a SERF

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 22:33

You make the assumption of gender reassignment?

Never.

Just playing Patsy Cline!

Crazy...

testing987654321 · 24/04/2020 22:43

That's interesting HedgeWitch. I do find it concerning that in your opinion I am expected to pretend a man is a woman at work, if he says he is, otherwise I am being deliberately hostile and not allowing someone their dignity.

This is ridiculous. It's an affront to my dignity that I would be forced to lie in such a way. Crazy world we live in.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 24/04/2020 22:51

Strange how as an “Equality and diversity officer” you don’t seem to be at all interested in equality for the women who know their rights are being eroded by being expected to use false pronouns for their colleagues/employees/employers, HedgeWitch.

Why are you so invested in promoting this ideology that it’s necessary for women to sacrifice their own well being in the interests of making male people feel better?

You may not be aware that Maya is rightly appealing the judgement by that Employment Tribunal judge. You certainly haven’t followed the case properly if you can come out with this statement: but her beliefs did not make it okay for her to be directly rude or hostile towards trans colleagues as this is a complete misrepresentation of the case. Maya was very clear that when it came to her actual colleagues, she did use their preferred pronouns.

Someone in your position really ought to pay more attention to the facts in this case and others. Perhaps it’s all that (internalised?) misogyny getting in the way. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, pushing this misogynist agenda under the guise of “equality and diversity”. Seriously, for shame.

OldCrone · 24/04/2020 22:52

Is there a particular reason you want to be rude to this person, or to make them feel uncomfortable, or to keep drawing attention to the fact they are trans?

So if you referred to a 'transwoman' like Alex Drummond as 'he', you would be 'drawing attention to the fact that they are trans'? Really?

Pic of beardy Alex for anyone unfamiliar with this person.

Can someone please help me out with pronouns
RuffleCrow · 24/04/2020 22:52

What are "women's clothes" @limpbizkit? I'm a woman in jeans and t-shirt. If i gave someone male my clothes they'd be wearing "women's clothes" but how would anyone know the male person hadn't just picked them up in Top Man? (Under normal circumstances)????

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 24/04/2020 22:53

Define living as a saint. Grin Grin Grin

Bananabixfloof · 24/04/2020 22:53

Better yet, why not just call them by their preferred pronouns? Why is
it so difficult

I know I've been here before. Because no one can remember.
So I challenge you @En178 to only ever use my pronouns which are
I, me and mine.
Anywhere on this site that you answer about, me or to me use my pronouns please.
Can everyone else that requires the use of pronouns now list theirs and we will see how this pans out?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 24/04/2020 23:00

I have to say that my experience suggests that not "supporting the delusion" is beneficial to the person who is having brain /body disconnect problems . Helps you sort your head out

Agreed. The fact that the initial feedback from other people to eating disordered behavior tends to be praise, right up until the point where the "this is no longer making you attractive to others" line is crossed, is part of what makes them so hard to fight.

TehBewilderness · 24/04/2020 23:07

So given all that, the real question is, is there actually a reason why you can't just use this person's preferred pronouns?

Like Magdalene, I would rather be rude than a liar.
I will not compromise my principles to accommodate authoritarian dominance displays.

RuffleCrow · 24/04/2020 23:08

No no no @hedgewitch79. The Equality Act is far from the only piece of legislation coming into play here. Freedom of Conscience is enshrined in numerous international treaties ratified by the UK. Compelling people to say things they genuinely believe to be untrue is not "just trying to live their lives quietly" at all. It is using the full weight of our ancient patriarchal legal system to put female people back on the back foot once more. Living one's life quietly is typified by allowing those around you to hold genuine beliefs which conflict with one's own. Especially where their beliefs are rooted in basic common sense and scientific evidence.

TyroSaysMeow · 24/04/2020 23:11

God forbid you ever meet a bloke called Kim

Swipe left for the next trending thread