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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Can someone please help me out with pronouns

281 replies

Lollygaggles · 23/04/2020 21:27

So how do I stand in terms of the current legislation, if I refer to a person by the pronouns of their birth, rather than their preferred pronouns?

Would it be compelled speech to be forced to collude with a belief that I do not accept? Also, how does my freedom not to be discriminated against because of my beliefs ( ie that people can't change sex) play out against the protections of Gender Reassignment and the trans person's rights as a legal member of the opposite sex ( though not a biological one.)

Would I be acting in a discriminatory way under the EA by referring to a person as their birth sex, when they have transitioned?

I want to be able to articulate my position very clearly, with reference to the law, but I don't actually know where we are as the law stands on competing rights.

Can anyone help me unpick it please?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
donquixotedelamancha · 24/04/2020 10:38

Most trans people just want to live quietly.

I agree with this. I think the Genderism nonsense and Self ID have been terrible for trans people.

None of that is an argument for people being compelled to use certain pronouns or for women to shut up and surrender their rights.

Lamahaha · 24/04/2020 10:40

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she.

But what if someone I suspect is a man is wearing men's clothes?

TinselAngel · 24/04/2020 10:41

I adored my Dad, if that's relevant.

I've been told by @spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

That his reality is compelled by law and mine is potentially criminalised is very disturbing.

OldCrone · 24/04/2020 10:48

that's a bit like saying which black people are more likely to steal our purse in the changing rooms? Think about it. Same difference. Same discriminatory dangerous attitude

Did you think about this before you wrote it? Anyone might be a thief. I'm not sure why you bring up anything about 'black people', unless perhaps you think that black people are more likely to be dishonest, which makes you racist.

We're talking about men in women's changing rooms. You suggest that some men who want to use women's changing rooms are nice men who just want to change their clothes (but even nice men will make some women uncomfortable). But if you let the nice men in, there's no reason to exclude any men, which means the pervs also have access.

It's easier just to keep such places single sex and keep all the men out of the women's changing rooms, even if that makes a few men a bit unhappy. And if these men are as nice as you imply they are, they wouldn't want to risk making the female users of the changing rooms uncomfortable anyway, so will be happy to go elsewhere (with other members of their own sex).

Kit19 · 24/04/2020 10:49

wait wait i havent got my bingo card ready and i see the racism analogy has already been used

I dont want to share my personal spaces with male bodied people whether they're wearing a dress, trousers or a space suit! why do you think we needed female only changing rooms/facilities/sessions/services in the first place?

NotBadConsidering · 24/04/2020 10:51

Given @RobinMoiraWhite is on the thread, maybe we could get a legal opinion. Did the judge force Maria MacLachlan to commit perjury by addressing her attacker by a pronoun for that person’s chosen gender rather than their sex? What is truth in that regard?

terryleather · 24/04/2020 11:07

Quite, Kit19

"My lovely trans friend" isn't a compelling argument** - my dad's lovely so is my DN, should they be able to access women's changing rooms/dorms/toilets because I like them and and they're lovely and know they wouldn't hurt a fly?

And segregation wrt changing rooms/dorms/toilets/prisons/sport etc is done by sex not race for reasons of fairness, safety, privacy & dignity.

This segregation is perfectly legal and was socially accepted up until males wanted a piece of it and framed their unreasonable demands as oppression and the new battle for civil rights when in reality it is a power play.

Is the bingo card filled yet?

OhHolyJesus · 24/04/2020 11:25

Also limp's comparison was a trans man, so female.

Jimmy Saville and Michael Jackson were absolutely "bloody lovely" to some children But not all children.

So we've had the Black person card, the Women Hate Men card and the I Know A Lovely Trans Person card. Bingo card getting full here too.

happydappy2 · 24/04/2020 11:27

Personally I would never refer to someone I know as male, with female pronouns as it would make ME feel very uncomfortable. Why would that male persons wish not to feel uncomfortable, trump my own wish not to feel uncomfortable?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2020 11:37

How do you know they are not men?

Quite. What, in fact, is a man anyway?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 24/04/2020 11:38

I've been told by @spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

In court or private life?

TinselAngel · 24/04/2020 11:48

In court or private life?

I general, I think.

I have to say, I asked this question at a public meeting so it wasn't a detailed legal opinion.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 24/04/2020 11:57

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she

Well, I'm a woman wearing trousers, Doc Marts and sporting a shaved head. So, going by the above, you possibly figure that I'd like to be referred to as 'he'? Well, I wouldn't!

I'm a woman. I would greatly prefer 'she', however I do accept that it's not my call to instruct anyone else on the way to address me when I'm not present.

This is all such friggin bollocks! Angry

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 24/04/2020 12:02

How many trans people do you know, ProdigalKittens? Rather fewer than I do, I would guess?

And your evidence for that is .....?

How do you justify your statistical comment about the correctness or otherwise of limpbizkit’s comment, which seems correct to me.

Well, as an 'androgynous looking' woman, the comments does not seem correct to me.

Most trans people of my acquaintance would regard someone of the OP’s persuasion with sadness for someone so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with.

Good for them. As far as I can see, the OP is acting perfectly respectfully.

DickKerrLadies · 24/04/2020 12:26

for someone so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with.

You know what, that's a very astute observation about many of the people that come here to insult us.

Can you believe, that some of these people have compared us to Nazis before?! It is quite sad that some people are so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with without invoking Godwin's law.

Datun · 24/04/2020 12:52

I've been told by @spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

For many transwidows, their husbands have AGP. So how would this work out? Would the ex-wife, and the public in general, be forced to use the wrong pronouns, even though the person concerned found it arousing?

Autogynephilia needs to be brought out into the open. There's nothing respectful about forcing an unwitting public into your fetish.

In general terms, my understanding is it is absolutely not illegal to use the correct pronoun, but it can veer into illegality if it becomes part of a pattern of harassment or abuse. Perhaps someone can confirm?

TinselAngel · 24/04/2020 12:59

Yes it would have to be able to be classed as harassment Datun , but I think there's potentially quite a low bar for that.

I'd be more than happy to be told I'm wrong on this, by the way!

MissHoskins · 24/04/2020 13:00

I'm with Magdalen on this. I'd rather be rude than be a fucking liar. Also Barracker and her thoughts on pronouns.
I would use a preferred name but I would correctly sex a person if I was speaking about them. My speech about another cannot be compelled.

Datun · 24/04/2020 13:09

Yes it would have to be able to be classed as harassment Datun , but I think there's potentially quite a low bar for that.

It appears, like much of this that is rather woolly, that court cases are the way forward.

Considering the increase in curtains being opened all over the country, perhaps AGP be the next sunlight dappled subject.

I can certainly envisage a defence of not wanting to use incorrect pronouns as it is otherwise sexually arousing to the person concerned.

TinselAngel · 24/04/2020 13:10

I don't think any of us want to be the test case though, ideally!

midgebabe · 24/04/2020 13:11

You see for me, treating someone as a human being exactly like I treat all other human beings means using sex indicative pronouns

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/04/2020 13:26

Just wondered, given the fact that this thread already includes pronouns and Corona.

What does science do? If men are more likely to get it and women less so do we list trans deaths in line with preferred pronouns?

Given the importance of accurate data in this matter can I say that I'll be as rude as the rudest thing if it helps find a vaccine. Sod being polite...

Thelnebriati · 24/04/2020 16:49

I've been told by spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

I don't think thats sound advice though. You shouldn't assume, and certainly not based on, of all things, clothing - you might accidentally out someone. Its all very complicated imo.

En178 · 24/04/2020 16:56

Better yet, why not just call them by their preferred pronouns? Why is it so difficult?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 24/04/2020 17:04

Let me see:

For trans friends, no problem at all. I have a relationship with them and am sensitive to their preferences

For trans strangers? Well, my eyes and brain often insist on recognising their sex and I don't want to be criminalised for not being 100% on message.

For trans activists? I have no desire to be forced to use language incorrectly when doing so undermines the rights of women. Nor do I wish to be forced to lie in court, or anywhere else, come to that.

And why should I, and all women, be the ones to be polite? Let the onus of that fall equally upon the shoulders of all trans individuals and their allies. Which would at least make Twitter a nicer place to be!