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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Blackfishing'

221 replies

jellyfrizz · 22/04/2020 14:07

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/14/blackfishing-black-is-cool-unless-youre-actually-black

But surely this is ok if you are actually black but born with the wrong skin pigmentation?

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Haworthia · 24/04/2020 16:41

There is literally nothing that selena is wearing on that cover that I wouldn't wear myself. Black leggings, black top. The hair style is worn by millions of primary school kids throughout the world, including my 6 year old.

Whereas I looked at it and didn’t even recognise it as Selena Gomez.

Justhadathought · 24/04/2020 16:43

Have you posted on the wrong thread? When has anyone suggested this

All of those points have been discussed and considered, or certainly implicated on this forum at one time or other. It is all a form of exceptionalism and inherently divisive intersectionality - in my mind, certainly.

Justhadathought · 24/04/2020 16:51

That's fine, as long as you're okay with other people (ie men) holding this same stance towards issues that affect you. As long as women aren't being raped or beaten then the minor issues are unimportant

The thing is...once you get to equal civil and legal rights.......there is an argument, that is entirely valid, that everything else ( such as being called 'Karen' in a derogatory way, or getting upset about a white woman wearing corn row plaits) is simply the everyday shit, conflict and annoyance of human life on earth.

Human conflict and disagreement and differences are never going to be fully eradicated. Not everything needs to be brought up to use as signifier of class struggle; or the battle of the sexes, or races, or whatever. Wherever there is difference there will be conflict. Inevitably.

Quarantina · 24/04/2020 16:55

All of those points have been discussed and considered, or certainly implicated on this forum at one time or other.

I'm sure they have, but I'm struggling to see how it's relevant to this particular thread? I haven't seen anyone say or even imply that all men are shit and life would be better without them.

AmericanAdventure · 24/04/2020 17:03

Whereas I looked at it and didn’t even recognise it as Selena Gomez. my point is that nothing she is wearing including the hairstyle is to me a signifier of black culture. But her remarkably changed skin tone is the signifier in this image.

Quarantina · 24/04/2020 17:13

The thing is...once you get to equal civil and legal rights.......there is an argument, that is entirely valid, that everything else is simply the everyday shit, conflict and annoyance of human life on earth.

We're really not at a stage where the 'big' issues have been solved and only minor issues remain. Yes, the law makes discrimination 'illegal', but both institutional racism and sexism are very much alive and well.

Gronky · 24/04/2020 17:14

Not everything needs to be brought up to use as signifier of class struggle; or the battle of the sexes, or races, or whatever. Wherever there is difference there will be conflict. Inevitably.

I'm sure this will be well received. Grin

YourVagesty · 24/04/2020 17:15

If somebody answered my question upthread, I've missed it sorry
(although I have looked!). For those of you who strongly feel that white people should be totally hands off on what you deem to be ethnic fashion and hairstyles, what about people who don't look like their race? How should they deal with that?

What if they look fully white but are a quarter black or Japanese etc. Can they wear braids or kimonos? How do they let people know that they've got permission, so to speak? Or do we assume that because they look white, they are white and make fun of them, as is suggested upthread?

I ask this as I'm a good chunk Asian but nobody would read that from me unless I told them. So I always wonder where me, and the bajillions of people like me stand on the issue. People think this is really clear cut but it isn't. The human race is really, really mixed up.

YourVagesty · 24/04/2020 17:17

And also, as to the blackface/womanface thing...

I find it highly offensive that men wear womanface like a costume. It's retrograde to the highest degree.

But it simply isn't the same as blackface. I would hazard that most women are mixed race somewhere along the line. Whereas no part of us is male. And no part of any male is female.

Quarantina · 24/04/2020 17:20

But it simply isn't the same as blackface. I would hazard that most women are mixed race somewhere along the line.

Yawn.

Nameofchanges · 24/04/2020 17:35

‘That's fine, as long as you're okay with other people (ie men) holding this same stance towards issues that affect you. As long as women aren't being raped or beaten then the minor issues are unimportant’

I’m not saying minor issues are unimportant. Issues of women’s representation in film for example are really important to me and I spend a lot of time discussing them with my daughter and we select media that has interesting female characters.

What I don’t expect to happen is for most men to care about it or even to particularly agree with me.

Quarantina · 24/04/2020 19:08

Not caring is one thing. I'm sure a lot of people who don't care simply scrolled by without reading/commenting. But I've always found the denial/defensiveness/dismissal that always follows when a race related issues are discussed on FWR a bit odd. And completely lacking in self awareness.

Nameofchanges · 24/04/2020 20:14

Well that’s the same complaint made about white people on every social media platform- that they deny issues and get defensive about racism. So there’s nothing odd about also finding it on fwr.

I’ve also never found people not caring about something to be particularly passive about discussing it. People, especially in the U.K., take great pleasure in saying how they couldn’t give a rats arse.

FlyingOink · 24/04/2020 20:56

We started off talking about a celebrity being styled to look like she was of African American heritage, though. So that's not quite the same as talking about a bunch of kids buying hoop earrings.

It's a weird picture and tbh I agree with PP who mentioned that getting a white woman to be artificially darkened for a shoot is bizarre when there is no shortage of women who are actually black who they could photograph for that aesthetic.
I also get how it is insulting.

But I don't get how some clothes and hairstyles are off limits, there's a world of difference between gelling baby hair at the hairline or temples and dying yourself black! And I agree, there's a world of difference between a girl rocking the look her friends all wear and a professional entertainer exploiting a look to make money.

Also, Latin American people in the US might not consider themselves white, but in Latin America someone who looks like Selena Gomez would be described as white by everyone. Latin Americans all have some Amerindian/indigenous blood and many have black/African blood as opposed to Spaniards or Portuguese from Europe (who might have Arab blood!)
But every country in Latin America has racism in media and white Latin Americans tend to be overrepresented in countries where they make up a minority of the population.

Someone like Christina Aguilera would look ridiculous in an Ecuadorian poncho, and she is half Ecuadorian.

Blackness is reported differently in the US, where the Jim Crow laws meant people with black ancestors were designated as black, compared to Brazil where people who are mixed race but light skinned are reported as white.

This led to much mocking of Shaun King, who is observably white, but who has claimed he is the result of an affair his mother had with a black man. In many other countries he would not be accepted as black by anyone because casual observations are made on appearance not ancestry.

On the other hand, George Zimmerman, who is observably Latin American with indigenous features, was reported as a white man when he killed a black boy.

In the US I would argue that there is cultural appropriation by Latin people who are adopting Black/"urban" styles. Is this a problem or is it ok because the two groups are both disadvantaged?

I'd also argue that a bit of Latin blood doesn't cancel out "white privilege" in the US, and that observably white Americans claiming to be oppressed minorities is as ridiculous as white men claiming to be non-binary. Ted Cruz is not in an oppressed minority, he's a white man.

Importing American arguments without taking into consideration the difference between there and anywhere else is always a problem.

I'd defer to what black women think on what they consider racist, but I am aware black women are not a monolithic group.

Justhadathought · 24/04/2020 21:28

Yawn

Great comment! Really adds to the debate.

Justhadathought · 24/04/2020 21:39

Not caring is one thing. I'm sure a lot of people who don't care simply scrolled by without reading/commenting. But I've always found the denial/defensiveness/dismissal that always follows when a race related issues are discussed on FWR a bit odd. And completely lacking in self awareness

Ditto!

You yourself never seem to engage with the actual content of what other people post.......for example, I've made several posts outlining many other examples of what might be considered 'cultural appropriations' - yet you seem to have just one gear......the one that relates to your own personal situation; .and no willingness to engage in the topic much beyond how sick you are of the blindness or hypocrisy of others.

Justhadathought · 24/04/2020 21:41

As opposed to the Big Issue of 'Is Karen a slur?' that prominent western feminists have chosen to speak on recently

This seems to be your main contribution over several threads....in which you dismiss a whole population based on the behaviours or views of a few.

Justhadathought · 24/04/2020 21:42

several pages

Justhadathought · 24/04/2020 21:53

Quarantina, here is the total sum of your contribution and engagement with the discussion /debate on this thread:

1)The race related threads on FWR always make for depressing reading. A lot of you are really no different to the men who go out of their way to minimise/rubbish/deny our experiences of sexism

2)My point is that from reading several race related threads on here, a lot of people are completely unwilling/unable to empathise with other women on race related issues. And I think it's a bit ridiculous to then turn around and critisize men for being unwilling/unable to empathise or care about feminist issues that don't affect them

3)That's completely fine. Debate away, it's a free forum and you can say whatever you like. I'm just giving my own viewpoint, which is also allowed

4)Surely you are aware that this very argument is often used to silence and shame western feminists and deny the existence of more covert sexism within society?As opposed to theBig Issueof 'Is Karen a slur?' that prominent western feminists have chosen to speak on recently

5)That's fine, as long as you're okay with other people (ie men) holding this same stance towards issues that affect you. As long as women aren't being raped or beaten then the minor issues are unimportant

6)Have you posted on the wrong thread? When has anyone suggested this

7)I'm sure they have, but I'm struggling to see how it's relevant to this particular thread? I haven't seen anyone say or even imply that all men are shit and life would be better without them

8)We're really not at a stage where the 'big' issues have been solved and only minor issues remain. Yes, the law makes discrimination 'illegal', but both institutional racism and sexism are very much alive and well

9)Yawn

Goosefoot · 24/04/2020 21:58

But her remarkably changed skin tone is the signifier in this image.

Do we know what her natural skin tone looks like? I've never seen her any other way but plastered make-up. The lighting also might be a factor - people in photo shoots often don't look particularly natural.

It's pretty common for fashion shoots to really change the appearance of the model, lightening skin, changing skin tone, making a brunette a redhead or a blond, I've seen model with fake freckles.

AmericanAdventure · 24/04/2020 22:31

All of the pictures that I ever seen of her she has been considerably lighter skinned but who knows.

Singasonga · 24/04/2020 22:46

In the US I would argue that there is cultural appropriation by Latin people who are adopting Black/"urban" styles. Is this a problem or is it ok because the two groups are both disadvantaged?

Yes, but literally everyone globally is adopting black/"urban" styles, including KPop stars. They are all putting their own spin on it, but there's no question there's a lot of cross-pollination going on with Black American culture at the heart of it.

The questions is, at what point is that officially a bad thing because it's appropriation, and when is it healthy cultural exchange of the type you'd expect from an ever more connected world?

doadeer · 24/04/2020 23:17

I agree in the media it's more black American culture expressed but in parts of London the Black British identity very much shapes culture.

As far as I understand the debate - the issue with celebrities adopting black styles is that there is very little acknowledgment of the inspiration and as a social group I believe black women are highly disadvantaged.

I understand that Vikings etc wore braids but when pop stars style themselves like this I don't think that is their inspiration!

FlyingOink · 24/04/2020 23:49

The questions is, at what point is that officially a bad thing because it's appropriation, and when is it healthy cultural exchange of the type you'd expect from an ever more connected world?

I think if we are seeing a white model or actor getting a black role in blackface, that's got to be appropriation, and racist.

If a sleb or instamuppet is being photographed as darker skinned, to the extent that their normally observable race is completely transformed, that's blackface too. The intent might be different but the outcome is the same, and it can't be argued to be unintentional. You know, when you see the pictures, that you've been made up to look black or mixed race, there's no mistaking.

Just wearing what you think is cool because XYZ sleb wears it - that's what needs to be looked at with a bit more nuance.

YourVagesty · 25/04/2020 00:14

Quarantina rather than dismissively responding with 'yawn' to my comment, I would genuinely love for you to answer my question:

*What if they look fully white but are a quarter black or Japanese etc. Can they wear braids or kimonos? How do they let people know that they've got permission, so to speak? Or do we assume that because they look white, they are white and make fun of them, as is suggested upthread?

I ask this as I'm a good chunk Asian but nobody would read that from me unless I told them. So I always wonder where me, and the bajillions of people like me stand on the issue. People think this is really clear cut but it isn't. The human race is really, really mixed up.*