'Blackfishing'

[jellyfrizz]

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/14/blackfishing-black-is-cool-unless-youre-actually-black

But surely this is ok if you are actually black but born with the wrong skin pigmentation?

A lot of people are completely unwilling/unable to empathise with other women on race related issues. And I think it's a bit ridiculous to then turn around and critisize men for being unwilling/unable to empathise or care about feminist issues that don't affect them

There is a difference between awareness of, and empathy, with certain types of issue......but a while different matter to suggest that everyone must agree on the outcome or method of travel.

Some strands of Feminism have been guilty of a certain kind of tyranny too......that women must be both equal and the same...when it comes to the 'appropriation' of certain roles and expressions usually once reserved for men......but at the same time receive more considerate treatment on account of their differences.

That's one of the big problems with 'equality' based arguments for me.......along with the tyranny that the oppressed victim group can exert over everyone else....in terms of trying to control what they can or can't say or do etc.

Everyone is fed up with that...hence all of the back-lashes against the various 'isms' of intersectionality.

Justhadathought, your point about freedom of speech being a sacred value is really interesting, as well as the notion of asserting identity in a globalised world.

I was thinking more of "top down" cultural exchange, e.g. the people who establish and popularise trends - designers, musicians, artists, etc. "The people" tend to follow them, they don't just pop out and use things they've no experience of unless they've seen it done elsewhere. And I think that is where a lot of genuine anger about appropriation comes from, when someone is clearly making bank off another, oppressed group just to feed a marketing machine.

"Bottom up" examples come from multi-ethnic, multicultural communities where exchange is happening directly - like South London slang.

Except that is not what is happening.......what is happening is a discussion which involves different viewpoints. I'm totally sick of ideological tyrannies - whatever their persuasion or origin.

That's completely fine. Debate away, it's a free forum and you can say whatever you like. I'm just giving my own viewpoint, which is also allowed.

It’s an important distinction, but the women in the article do just look like they’re copying street styles that have been around for twenty years, apart from Kardashian.

A lot of people are completely unwilling/unable to empathise with other women on race related issues

I think every woman here has empathy with the suffering of women around the world on account of their sex......real oppressions like selective abortions of female foetuses; the abandonment of female children; the dowry system; honour killing; FGM; the legalisation and acceptability of wife beating; of the position of women in Saudi Arabia.....Real Issues Big Issues not so much on issues of cultural appropriations of dress, language, style , food or whatever else. That all seems to be a bit too precious and arising itself from a position and culture of relative western privilege.

So much of this seems to come back to the black American experience...and it shapes and dominates the debate everywhere, these days

I think there is a confusion between blackfish and following Black popular culture.

Urban Black culture is and always has been popular among young people. I don't know why, perhaps because it's seen as edgy.

Lots of white children copy the styles in the same way that some white children become goths or punks.

Clinging on to a fashion, which for many the hip hop style is, is just part of growing up and finding your identity.

Personally I think the Kardashians get alot of flack for using black styles to make money. But it seems more to me that they fetishaise black people and culture, possibly because they are Arminian and felt they never fitted in with their white peers. I'm not saying that's ok, just my take on it. I suppose as it then gained them popularity they pushed it further. But Kim only seem to really start to try and look black after she got with Kanye.

When we accuse people of copying black culture, it's usually hip hop/rap, Urban type culture we refer to, not carrabian or African culture. So arnt they just copying popular culture? And imitation is the biggest form of flattery.

I don't think anyone should tell anyone how to look. Maybe we should address the discrimination Black women face, rather than tell young white girls they can't copy their favorite black popstar or dress the same as their black friends.

Hmm, call me cynical, but it seems to me that many “top down” musicians and fashionistas are just copying street style anyway.

And my white daughter and her houseful of not so white uni mates were all wearing that streety sportswear look six years ago. Should only some of them been allowed to? Does the middle class Irish mixed race girl have more right to wear that fashion than my sink comp educated white daughter? And what about her Thai housemate and her Polish one?

Fashion is a melting pot.

I don’t expect men to care about the more minor women’s issues like representation, the beauty standard or portrayals in the media

I do. These feed into the notions of femininity and womanhood that affect how women are respected in all areas of society.

Justhadathought, your point about freedom of speech being a sacred value is really interesting, as well as the notion of asserting identity in a globalised world

I do think this is becoming one of the defining issues of this age. Along with globalisation and the porousness of international boundaries versus heightened nationalism or regionalism, in which individual states and regions seek to re-assert their differences and unique character and autonomy. Integration and assimilation versus multiculturalism.

The intent behind the use of another group/culture's artefact is critical. If you have researched it, and the group it represents, and are using it to celebrate/draw attention to that group, you're not appropriating.

Where do you draw the line. Can a teenager wear tartan trousers if they haven't researched both punk culture and Scottish history.

I have absolutely no problem with men wearing women’s clothes, makeup, hairstyles etc. The same goes for white Americans (although Selena Gomez is Latina) people adopting other cultures hairstyles and clothes. Hair and clothing styles are not something people own. The problem comes when people try to claim that this makes them something they are not, or expect praise for doing something women/another race or culture have been doing forever.

^A point which would blow that journalists mind

I think every woman here has empathy with the suffering of women around the world on account of their sex......real oppressions like

Surely you are aware that this very argument is often used to silence and shame western feminists and deny the existence of more covert sexism within society?

'Big Issues not so much on issues of cultural appropriations of dress, language, style , food or whatever else. That all seems to be a bit too precious and arising itself from a position and culture of relative western privilege.

As opposed to the Big Issue of 'Is Karen a slur?' that prominent western feminists have choeen to speak on recently?

I do think the internet makes the topdown/bottomup distinctions blur, because kids can get ideas from celebs, other kids (and other communities) via Instagram, and TikTok, Reddit, and so on. That's where accusations of "blackfishing" start to feel a bit heavyhanded to me.

We started off talking about a celebrity being styled to look like she was of African American heritage, though. So that's not quite the same as talking about a bunch of kids buying hoop earrings.

I was thinking more of "top down" cultural exchange, e.g. the people who establish and popularise trends - designers, musicians, artists, etc. "The people" tend to follow them, they don't just pop out and use things they've no experience of unless they've seen it done elsewhere. And I think that is where a lot of genuine anger about appropriation comes from, when someone is clearly making bank off another, oppressed group just to feed a marketing machine

That's the nature of capitalism and the free market economy..and it can have really shitty side effects and consequences. I mentioned the globalisation of football earlier.......and the negative effect that has on the ability of local, traditional working class supporters to attend matches and to support their club. They've been priced out.

Now popular or successful, football teams have as much foreign support as they do domestic ( perhaps even more). Liverpool football club is now majority owned by rich American businessmen, and even American basketball star LeBron James now owns shares in Liverpool football club.

Where do you draw the line. Can a teenager wear tartan trousers if they haven't researched both punk culture and Scottish history.

Is the teenager launching a clothing label, manufacturing the trousers, and getting loads of influencers to wear them? If the answer is yes, then I think a bit of research wouldn't go amiss.

Is Karen a slur impacts on white women. Of course people care about minor issues that impact them.

That doesn’t mean it’s realistic to expect they’re going to become engaged with minor issues of every other ethnic group.

What unites women are the big issues.

People will get upset about stuff. People complained about the inherent racism in the Western 'beauty ideal'; blonde hair, blue eyes, slim hips, small nose, blah blah.

Now the style / beauty ideal is much more 'black' - big hips, big 'booty, Afro-hair, full lips etc., a good thing for Black representation surely?

We are all influencing each other.

As opposed to the Big Issue of 'Is Karen a slur?' that prominent western feminists have chosen to speak on recently

I certainly haven't contributed to that thread. We're all different. That's the point.

Just because someone is black, or working class white-Irish, and/or contributes to a forum about women's rights - doesn't mean they have to conform to a narrow set of beliefs or expressions.

There's plenty of disagreement amongst women on here about what feminism is and what it means. What's most relevant; most important.

Surely you are aware that this very argument is often used to silence and shame western feminists and deny the existence of more covert sexism within society

Yes, and to some extent I can find agreement with that position. That once equal legal and civil rights have been achieved, then you simply cannot enforce equality of outcome; or negate all sex based differences; or individual differences; or discount that people are free ( in theory) to make their own choices about how to live their life; what values they adopt. Certainly not in a liberal, western democracy, anyway.

There is literally nothing that selena is wearing on that cover that I wouldn't wear myself. Black leggings, black top. The hair style is worn by millions of primary school kids throughout the world, including my 6 year old. I would argue the only really questionable aspect of the hairstyle is that it is infantilising a grown women. As is the petulant tongue out pose. It's all a bit naughty little girl for my liking. What is striking is the colour of her skin? I wonder if this was altered pre or post production and in whose best interest this decision was made? It wouldn't be the first time a woman's appearance was changed by a publication, but for what reason would this have been done.

The idea that all men are shit, or that life would be better without men, or that women would make better rulers or governors, or anything else which presupposes female superiority and the essential corrupted nature of maleness is not for me.

Is Karen a slur impacts on white women. Of course people care about minor issues that impact them.

That doesn’t mean it’s realistic to expect they’re going to become engaged with minor issues of every other ethnic group

That's fine, as long as you're okay with other people (ie men) holding this same stance towards issues that affect you. As long as women aren't being raped or beaten then the minor issues are unimportant?

The idea that all men are shit, or that life would be better without men, or that women would make better rulers or governors, or anything else which presupposes female superiority and the essential corrupted nature of maleness is not for me.

Have you posted on the wrong thread? When has anyone suggested this?