'Blackfishing'

[jellyfrizz]

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/14/blackfishing-black-is-cool-unless-youre-actually-black

But surely this is ok if you are actually black but born with the wrong skin pigmentation?

And then the royals started marrying 'commoners'..Zara Phillips and her rugby playing boyfriend, William marrying Kate..even though she's significantly 'poshed up' now.

Without any real powers anymore, the need for Royals to make or beef up alliances kinda falls away.

I think the first time I heard about cultural appropriation was the ‘my culture is not your f**king prom dress’ tweet that went viral in response to a white girl who had a traditional Chinese style silk dress for her prom.

I do get it, but sometimes feel it’s confusing determining what is and isn’t cultural appropriation. Can ‘appropriated’ cultures appropriate each other? Eg could a Chinese person appropriate black culture? Could a black person appropriate Native American culture? And if you’re white can you still appropriate other white cultures? Eg an English person appropriating Polish or French or Russian culture? And why do a lot of the SJW types giving lectures about it wear winged eyeliner, surely that’s culturally significant to ancient Egyptian culture? It’s a bit of a minefield..

I can't get too excited about people appropriating certain looks or styles....it is just fashion.....this is the nature of fashion..it plays with 'collective' images, fantasies and stereotypes. And in a multi-cultural world is not surprising that different kinds of looks have appeal - for those interested in fashion. Same with popular music.

It's been really notable to me since the internet how international trends can be at times. Teenagers like my daughter seem much more exposed, albeit superficially, to international locations, music bloggers, trends, slang. They seem to move extremely quickly from one place to another. The flip side of that is they all seem to be more similar and generic and less distinct.

Just sounds like a Guardian writer struggling to find something new for readers to be outraged about - there always some happy to oblige.

I don't know about the experience of being black or a POC, but I remember when the black is beautiful movement happened in the sixties. My generation were all jealous of black people for their good looks. And this was just a few years after the Temptations and the Supremes, with their frankly weird straightened hair.

Since then, we've seen how skin-lightening products have done untold damage to people in countries where darker skin is the norm.

Surely everyone benefits when the standard colonial idea that only light skin and and straight blonde hair is beautiful is discarded?

I think the first time I heard about cultural appropriation was the ‘my culture is not your fking prom dress’ tweet that went viral in response to a white girl who had a traditional Chinese style silk dress for her prom.
IIRC there was a lot of support from Chinese people too, though.
Perhaps the difference is that in the US there was so much systemic racism against black people it is more likely to be perceived as exploitative.
If you wore a sombrero and a poncho to a fancy dress party here and said you were Speedy Gonzalez people might laugh. If you did it in the US, people would assume you were being racist.

I think it rather sad that people are apparently criticised for borrowing design ideas from different cultures.
I was a teenager in the 1960’s/70’s, and imbued with the Star Trek Vulcan notion of “Infinite joy in infinite diversity”. We had a spell in the 70’s where so called “ethnic fashion” was all the rage, and dresses were a glorious riot of colourful trimming with everything from African prints, to Asian batik, Amerindian designs, you name it.
We weren’t trying to “appropriate” their culture, we were admiring it and celebrating it, and giving it a wider audience.
I suppose nowadays Paul Simon would be criticised for appropriating South African music on his Graceland album, but it was a fabulous collaboration.
Could we all not just take joy in being one world?

I suppose nowadays Paul Simon would be criticised for appropriating South African music on his Graceland album, but it was a fabulous collaboration.

Er he was at the time. However it was rather lost in the much louder protests that he'd broken the cultural embargo to work in South Africa. (I guess he was a Queen fan ?).

All of which being said, if it hadn't been for that album, the wider world might never have heard that incredible music - and the performers who created it. So maybe the overall effect was positive ?

I think you have to exercise common sense.
Dont wear culturally significant items like native american war bonnets and bindis to Coachella and Glastonbury. Do cook a variety of recipes from around the world. Do listen to a variety of music from around the world.

But 1Mice, why are you making an artificial distinction for clothing? If it isn’t cultural appropriation of recipes or music, why is it for clothes? I don’t see your logic.
My African brother in law brought me back a traditional outfit from his home country - are you saying I should not be allowed to wear it? And if not, why not?

Serendipity, indeed, as a direct result of the Graceland album, lots of South African musicians and choirs have had the chance for lucrative world tours, and I’ve had the tremendous pleasure of seeing them at the Edinburgh Festival and even my local concert hall. Their influence has enriched our own musical heritage. It’s so much better than cultural apartheid, no?

Dont wear culturally significant items like native american war bonnets and bindis to Coachella

But what if, like I me, you look white but come from mixed heritage? Should I stop and explain myself to every other person? I appreciate your perspective so my exasperation isn't personally aimed at you. But this is where the whole issue leaves me.

Interesting, isn’t it?

But 1Mice, why are you making an artificial distinction for clothing?

I'm not sure 1Mice meant clothing was a problem so much as cultural items that have certain special roles. Which often seem to be clothing but not always.

So for one time I saw a set of dresses in a fashion show based on religious icons. They were objectively quite beautiful, with amazing beadwork, but many religious people found the idea of these very sacred images for ritual use being used as fashion accessories off-putting.

War bonnets aren't really just a nice hat, they are only meant for certain people in certain circumstances. It's a bit like wearing someone's war medals on your jean jacket to look cool.

But 1Mice, why are you making an artificial distinction for clothing? If it isn’t cultural appropriation of recipes or music, why is it for clothes? I don’t see your logic

There isn't any logical consistency in that argument...it is more about trying to be 'correct' and not offending any sensibilities. That can only lead to paralysis and a lack of personal common sense, in my opinion.

War bonnets aren't really just a nice hat, they are only meant for certain people in certain circumstances. It's a bit like wearing someone's war medals on your jean jacket to look cool

Maybe, but other religious icons and symbols - usually Christian ( as that often seems to be seen as fair game) are often used as fashion items. Crosses, crucifixes etc.

I understand what you are getting at.......but fashion doesn't really care about those sorts of sentiments...more about iconography and symbolism/imagery.

There is indeed cultural appropriation when fashion designers rip off designs from other cultures because they can. This is has happened more than once with Mexican work. No problem with people wearing the stuff, but when Europeans rip off the design and do not acknowledge or pay the original designer that is serious stuff.

Wearing a costume from another country to mock them is another big no.

As for this
So for one time I saw a set of dresses in a fashion show based on religious icons. They were objectively quite beautiful, with amazing beadwork, but many religious people found the idea of these very sacred images for ritual use being used as fashion accessories off-putting
Disgusting

All a long way from braiding one's hair because you think it looks beautiful.

Maybe, but other religious icons and symbols - usually Christian ( as that often seems to be seen as fair game) are often used as fashion items. Crosses, crucifixes etc.

I understand what you are getting at.......but fashion doesn't really care about those sorts of sentiments...more about iconography and symbolism/imagery.

Yeah - I don't think people should do that. It has nothing to do with cultural appropriation, it's just disrespectful of others to do it for frivolous reasons, be they members of your own group or some other group. And outside of woke nonsense, most cultures only have a limited number of things that are set apart in that way, so it's not a terrible pain in the ass to avoid it.

It's not like its even a free for all, anyway. If you wear medals that aren't your own, or the regalia of some office that doesn't belong to you, there are instances where it's illegal, a sort of impersonation. Even as a secular society we accept some things should be used in a particular way - for us the ones we protect legally tend to be commercial or privately owned, which probably just reflects the things we think are important.

One off the things that pisses me off about the idea of cultural appropriation is it often means people feel like any complaint about people using symbols etc is just the same stupid shit, and should be ignored.

when Europeans rip off the design and do not acknowledge or pay the original designer that is serious stuff.

Very often there is no such person. I have a canoe in my back yard. How could the company who made it pay the original designer? And everyone knows its origins, or can find out easily enough, there is really no need for the manufacturer to say anything about it.

Very often there is no such person

There are communities, often living in extreme poverty.

Thank you NoAdventureNoTime for explaining it so well. Picking up and then dropping black skin tone and black culture when it suits, often to make money and get likes is hurtful, when black people get vilified for being ourselves. And they'd rather pay for a front page of black face, whilst black women wouldn't be given the opportunity because we apparently don't sell magazines. It's not about the sharing and appreciation of cultures which can only be a good thing. It's about costuming.

Thank you so much. You put that really well. Much better than I did! Yes, it's not that clothes are a category that cant be touched, but that certain items have cultural significance, and its upsetting for people when these items are taken and used as dress up, or fashion, or fun.

And fantastic explanation about the war bonnets

There are communities, often living in extreme poverty [as a suggestion as to who to pay for the design of the canoe].

This is a really narrow perspective to me. I remember when I studied for my art A Level, we looked as Australian Aboriginal art, South American folk art etc. We all loved it and made our own versions (this is only just over a decade ago, not back in the dark ages). Should my school have paid somebody? Can we not just celebrate global culture?

The whole thing makes me really sad.

Yes, it's not that clothes are a category that cant be touched, but that certain items have cultural significance

I can understand that But I think it’s somewhat undermined when people get angry about women wearing their hair in plaits.