'Blackfishing'

[jellyfrizz]

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/14/blackfishing-black-is-cool-unless-youre-actually-black

But surely this is ok if you are actually black but born with the wrong skin pigmentation?

One off the things that pisses me off about the idea of cultural appropriation is it often means people feel like any complaint about people using symbols etc is just the same stupid shit, and should be ignored

Going right back to the 1980's ( in Britain,) Native American culture was becoming a 'thing' in alternative circles....I used to go to camps......when lots of people would live in a tee-pee, sing songs about White Buffalo Woman, wear hand made moccasin and so on....they took it very seriously...as it was seen to be a way of reconnecting with the earth, and a spiritual path. The use of 'Medicine cards' and having totem animals, making your own dream catcher.

These days you see shop bought dreamcatchers hanging from car rear view mirrors, and lots of people have them without having any deep understanding of the culture behind them.

The American airforce named its missiles Tomahawks and flew in Apache helicopters.......I could see more offence in this...even though I imagine they were adopted as names because Native Americans were also warriors and had developed an array of fearsome weaponry.

Remember Madonna's video for Like A Prayer?. That caused some consternation and upset at the time.....but i do think that there seems to be more tolerance of such flagrant challenge, and also appropriation of religious iconography in much of 'the west'. I guess that kind of tolerance comes in cultures in which degrees of personal & moral relativity are considered normal.

As for canoes, kayaks, sarongs, crosses, bindis, plaits ( even cornrow ones), decorative dreamcatchers, tartan bags and scarves and any other number of decorative or even iconic images from any number of communities........after a while getting precious and irate serves little meaningful purpose other than to nurse and nurture wounds & grievances.

I've been reading this thread on my phone (which is shit) and I don't know how I missed NoAdventures original post but its brilliant and explains my POV much better than I did! I agree with every point you made.

I think that is the line, wearing culture as a costume with no recognition of the culture you are using and then putting it down when its of no further use to you. TBH I can't see why so many GC women seem yo have a blind spot with this, its the same thing.

I just have the song Common People by Pulp going around my head.

In fact, there is still a whole community, living in the Welsh Hills, called 'Tee Pee Valley' to this day

Tipi Valley

TBH I can't see why so many GC women seem yo have a blind spot with this, its the same thing

No, We recognise it, well I do, but have grown more towards a point of thinking it is not the most important issue...and is bound to happen in any global, multicultural society. It goes for speech patterns too......accents and dialects are appropriated by other peoples too...not natural to them. It's kind of inevitable.

I live in Liverpool and have seen various local phrases becoming mainstream and used on a national level...even at the highest levels.
For example "It's all kicking off" is a Liverpool originated phrase, now used by many........Should working class Liverpudlians now object to Boris Johnson using that phrase? Should people get irate about Londoners supporting Liverpool football club....and about the big, expensive corporate boxes at Anfield?

Some do, actually...because football has gone from being a working class sport to a wealthy global business...and that means that local people, can no longer afford tickets to the match, or even get hold of them.....But then there is also an acceptance that some of the thrill of modern football would be missing if the international renown wasn't there.

It goes for speech patterns too......accents and dialects are appropriated by other peoples too...not natural to them.

In the 80s, I had a friend who was white as snow, and yet who spoke in a thick Jamaican accent.

Because they had been born and bred on Jamaica.

I wonder how they'd get on these days if they'd stayed in the UK ?

(By the same token, has anyone ever had a chance to see Don Letts in conversation ?)

Kim Kardashian in Diana Ross wig etc is nothing short of embarrassing.
And I am not surprised at the commentary on ‘Black Twitter’ that the Guardian us reporting on.

I am a GC feminist and see much of the trans-extreme stuff as aggressive cultural appropriation of womanhood, and it is exactly as described. The signifiers without the sex based oppression and barriers.

On the other hand, travel, culture, cookery programmes and especially Social Media make all cultural forms so porous, and it isn’t possible or desirable to put boundaries of ownership around our expression.

(By the same token, has anyone ever had a chance to see Don Letts in conversation ?

My son has actually DJ'd with him......

On January 30, 1989, George Michael was the first white artist to win Favorite Soul/R&B Male Artist award. His album “Faith” also won as Favorite Soul/R&B Album. That win caused a huge controversy in the black music community.

The important thing is, surely, that while white people admire, adopt and benefit from, for example, black music, they also take responsibility for challenging the racism that impacts black people’s lives.

Because it is racism that makes cultural appropriation a ‘thing’.

Similarly, yes to supporting trans women to express themselves as they feel fit but they need to take responsibility for defending women’s sex based rights.

IMO.

My friend presents as black. She darkens her skin, gets lip fillers and wears a corn row hairstyle. Her husband is black and her children are mixed race. She dresses the same as her sister in laws who are black. THAT is what I’d call blackfishing, because she’s clearly emulating her family who are black. Simply getting a tan or adopting a hairstyle that some black people wear, is not blackfishing. No more than wearing a kimono is appropriating Japanese culture.

(By the same token, has anyone ever had a chance to see Don Letts in conversation ?) [] My son has actually DJ'd with him......

Massive respect ...

So there's an interesting addition to the mix ... The Clash (amongst others) certain were "inspired" by reggae ... were they "appropriating it" ? Or were they simply bringing their own upbringing to the party, like Jerry Dammers was doing in the melting pot that was Coventry ?

It's not about women wearing plaits though. It's specifically about white women wearing box braids and cornrows, when these specific protective hairstyles have cultural significance to black women. Why shouldn't black women's culture be respected? Enough black women have made it perfectly clear that this is appropriation.

Similarly, yes to supporting trans women to express themselves as they feel fit but they need to take responsibility for defending women’s sex based rights

Not many people have a problem at all with males wearing 'female clothing' or wearing make-up.....but that does not make them women, anymore than a white woman wearing corn row plaits is black; or someone practising yoga on a daily basis is Hindu or Indian.

The outward forms and presentations are just that........they do not make you a woman, or working class, or black, or a native American......

Of course there are many people who convert to and adopt the religious practices of other cultures. Africans may have been forcefully converted to Christianity...but many black communities have now more than embraced that, and certainly made it totally their own.

The important thing is, surely, that while white people admire, adopt and benefit from, for example, black music, they also take responsibility for challenging the racism that impacts black people’s lives

And western people who practice yoga have to actively campaign for the human rights of Indian women?

I guess many who practice yoga do feel more than a little sympathy with the plight suffered by many Indian women.....because when you open yourself up to other cultures you do tend to feel sympathy for and with them.......

Massive respect ...So there's an interesting addition to the mix ... The Clash (amongst others) certain were "inspired" by reggae ... were they "appropriating it" ? Or were they simply bringing their own upbringing to the party, like Jerry Dammers was doing in the melting pot that was Coventry

My son is a DJ, and in recent years has become an avid collector of old reggae music........Don Letts was in Liverpool giving a talk and then partying afterwards......The Beatles, too, were very much influenced by the music that was coming in through the Port of Liverpool, from the U.S, at that time. A lot of it black music.

It's not about women wearing plaits though. It's specifically about white women wearing box braids and cornrows, when these specific protective hairstyles have cultural significance to black women.

I simply don’t care. It’s a hairstyle, it might have significance to one person but that doesn’t mean they have any right to demand others don’t wear their hair in that style.

Why shouldn't black women's culture be respected? Enough black women have made it perfectly clear that this is appropriation

Katie Price used to wear corn row plaits. She has a black son......child of footballer, Dwight York. Why is her wearing plaits disrespectful towards black women.

What do you mean by black women's culture, anyway? Black American? Somali? Nigerian? Congolese? Each of these communities have their own traditions and practices.......

No-one is wearing a kimono, though. They are incredibly expensive formalwear, just as the average fashionista's "Indian inspired" fashion is highly unlikely to be a full sari. I can't even think of many people who have & wear more affordable (and very authentic) cotton yukatas.What most people are wearing in daywear fashion is kimono-inspired dressing gowns and tops - so classic cross-cultural idea exchange.

How's this for irony: real, traditional kimonos are vanishing in Japan because the skill to make them is rare and the materials are costly. Really, what people who really care about Japanese culture could do would be to demand real kimonos at haute couture level, and buy lots of yukata and kimono-inspired fashion from brands buying from Japanese textiles makers at ready-to-wear level.

Instead, we get things like this, where a minority of wokesters can shut down an avenue for cultural interest and idea exchange, which does nothing to support kimono makers OR Japanese culture:

www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2015/08/04/commentary/japan-commentary/kimono-cultural-appropriation/

Here's a good, and very detailed, 3-part breakdown of what the protesters were trying to do (and why they had some of the ideas they did) vs why Japanese observers thought they were out of their minds:

japaneseamericaninboston.blogspot.com/2015/08/part-1-kimono-wednesdays-protest.html

@Justhadathought

now the bottom is the thing. Women have butt implants etc - to achieve that high, rounded 'African' backside.

Apparently this trend is also followed by some trans women. A very good female friend of mine told me about a trans woman who goes - with their ex-wife and all of their mutual female friends - on “girls’ weekends away” and glams up with the aid of wigs, figure-hugging mini-dresses, and apparently a pop-in Kardashian-style bottom that you can get from specialist suppliers. I’ve just found a photo on eBay.

Incidentally my friend tells me that the person calls themselves “Susan” [it’s actually another female name] and sits in the jacuzzi with all the other women. Apparently, “Susan” dates men and women and won’t have a full transition because - according to my friend - she loves her c*ck too much. (Since I’ve read about AGP on here, I understand all this much better than I did just a few months ago,)

Perhaps surprisingly, my dear friend - and “Susan”’s ex-wife and the other women - don’t mind “Susan” coming along on these weekends.

This is an interesting read, 'From Elvis to Eminem'. It's a photocopied pdf from Souls: A Critical Journal of Black Politics, Culture, and Society 2001 (Uni of Illinios, Chicago). Similar observations were made about bands such as the Stones or Led Zeppelin who made a lot of money by using the black music sound.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.columbia.edu/cu/ccbh/souls/vol3no2/vol3num2art4.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjixI3C44DpAhViTxUIHcbCAvAQFjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3ucUwWqK5Cf1m4PJT-7BV1" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.columbia.edu/cu/ccbh/souls/vol3no2/vol3num2art4.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjixI3C44DpAhViTxUIHcbCAvAQFjABegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3ucUwWqK5Cf1m4PJT-7BV1

And this was just a few years after the Temptations and the Supremes, with their frankly weird straightened hair.

You just reminded me. I have seen photos of my mum in the 60s and she looks like Arethra Franklyn and the Supremes! Exact same hair style and look.
However, my mum is half Indian/Pakistani half white English, so I don't know whether she can culturally appropriate. Maybe half of her can?

Kim Kardashian in Diana Ross wig etc is nothing short of embarrassing.

Except she's not is she; she's in a Sophia loren wig.

And if it comes down to it, Diana Ross also wore a wig; that wasn't her hair in the sixties. She was trying out white fashion herself.