'Blackfishing'

[jellyfrizz]

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/14/blackfishing-black-is-cool-unless-youre-actually-black

But surely this is ok if you are actually black but born with the wrong skin pigmentation?

Apparently this trend is also followed by some trans women. A very good female friend of mine told me about a trans woman who goes - with their ex-wife and all of their mutual female friends - on “girls’ weekends away” and glams up with the aid of wigs, figure-hugging mini-dresses, and apparently a pop-in Kardashian-style bottom that you can get from specialist suppliers. I’ve just found a photo on eBay

This trans woman was featured in my local paper this week. Also goes by the appropriated name of Kym - as well as appropriating the entire look:

...another image of 'Kym'

One thing that annoys me is when outlets like the Guardian report on things like this with no explanation of the context, which is American. Unless you know the things black Americans continue to suffer, the objections are very difficult to understand. Plus, you can’t just extrapolate as though all of this applies equally in the U.K. Which it doesn’t.

I do wish the Guardian would stop publishing lazy, superficial articles on difficult topics by kid journalists who think cutting and pasting from Twitter or Instagram is research.

Noadventurenotime you are bang on. I've got a black mate who has given me a run down on the hair thing' and it's a massive pain. She 'has' to have certain kinds of braids as she works in the city and a 'fro isn't considered 'professional'. What the AF?! I consider her calmness and tolerance in the face of the day to day crap absolutely amazing, and have been shocked by many of the things she has told me. Who even thinks they have the right to tell black woman what is and isn't acceptable or that their natural hair isn't? Ir that they can't wear certain braids? I do think it's mostly men doing this kind of bossing around though. Which doesn't make it better - but they do it to us too, and to Asian women (in burkhas - probably not even wearing them by choice!)

Of course you have the very large consolation of know that braids and cornrows on a white woman NEVER look good. At worst they look utterly ridiculous showing how little hair that person really has and at best just a bit stupid and unflattering. They also make the wearer look a bit dim and TTH. But you will never stop stupid people doing stupid things. Especially stupid young people.

As for the article - what about all the white boys talking like 'gangstas' and wearing their pants around their ankles? 😂😂??? From their suburban homes? Ali G nailed it with his piss take.

And that's really my point. Black fishing is offensive AF. No intelligent mature person would do it. I know someone that does and she's a narcissistic, unhinged, rudderless girl who posts a constant stream of heavily edited yoga poses online (i follow her for a laugh. Keep meaning to do piss take poses with wine when drinking but keep forgetting). But those that do it are first and foremost ridiculous, and usually attention seeking, with personal issues. So I think as well as calling it out (men and women) we need to make fun of them. But not by wokesplaining or just picking on women.

And it's not up to me as a white person to decide what black people find offensive - it's their experience and that's the end of it. So even though I have more hair than I care to think about it won't be going into cornrows no matter how much the ladies on the beach on holiday try. I'm far too vain to make a fool of myself like that and now have the excellent excuse of being able to say it's cultural appropriation. And when confronted with a blackfisher (who tend to be VERY woke) I have the upper hand morally now without even trying! They read the guardian too so it's double bonus 😉.

I don't know as many male ones and maybe that's why - there simply isn't the scope, aesthetically?

There are communities, often living in extreme poverty.

Yes, people sometimes suggest that somehow funds from traditional and often ancient innovations and designs should be shunted to the ethnic communities from which they originate.

I am fairly sure they haven't thought through the implications of that, which would not be nice, and would not primarily benefit impoverished communities.

I remember when I studied for my art A Level, we looked as Australian Aboriginal art, South American folk art etc. We all loved it and made our own versions (this is only just over a decade ago, not back in the dark ages)

I'm talking about specific designs, not things that in the style of.

Who even thinks they have the right to tell black woman what is and isn't acceptable or that their natural hair isn't?

I’m really confused by this. You can’t tell a black woman how to wear her hair, but non black women should not wear braids because it’s offensive to some other people...? And they all look dumb if they do?

As for canoes, kayaks, sarongs, crosses, bindis, plaits ( even cornrow ones), decorative dreamcatchers, tartan bags and scarves and any other number of decorative or even iconic images from any number of communities........after a while getting precious and irate serves little meaningful purpose other than to nurse and nurture wounds & grievances.

I totally agree with this. But I think there is a real distinction between, say, exploring traditional Jewish cuisine, and making some sort of formal gown made with Star of David fabric and wearing it out in public.

In general many people have lost the sense of certain items being set aside as anything other than empty symbols, maybe that's why there is this problem with people either avoiding everything or avoiding nothing?

So I think as well as calling it out (men and women) we need to make fun of them. But not by wokesplaining or just picking on women

That sounds incredibly intolerant.....

Yes, so some people are swayed by social media and wanting to fit in.........I'd say most people are primarily social creatures.I don't see the need for overt unpleasantness though. Just sounds morally superior......and most likely ignoring or not acknowledging hundreds of your own 'appropriations'.

And it's not up to me as a white person to decide what black people find offensive - it's their experience and that's the end of it

Black people are not uniform, nor all of one mind. And there is nothing wrong with commenting on anything anyone does - regardless of their social group or background, There are no 'no go' areas, as long as debate is respectful.

And it's not up to me as a white person to decide what black people find offensive - it's their experience and that's the end of it.

Someone deciding they think something is offensive is not some sort of free pass which means others need to accept their view, or even that they are correct that the thing is offensive.

Feeling offended can come from all kinds of places and not all are equally connected to the nature of a situation.

This idea that being offended means everyone has to do what you want has been toxic and it's deeply immature.

The race related threads on FWR always make for depressing reading. A lot of you are really no different to the men who go out of their way to minimise/rubbish/deny our experiences of sexism.

What instance of sexism is cultural appropriation equivalent to?

I feel there is a difference between the treatment of oppressed people and any random country.

If we’re talking about the treatment of the Sioux and the decimation of their people and culture, that’s something the whole world should be concerned with.

But when people start fretting about Japan or China, it becomes a bit silly.

When it comes to disrespect shown towards the sacred, the West does promote that attitude to its own religious inheritance, so it’s no surprise that it doesn’t understand how to treat something as sacred anymore.

I hear what black women say about their identity not being a costume to wear and remove. But my 15 year old niece wears sports wear, hooped earrings etc because Beyonce sells them to her via TopShop. Young working class girls tend not to be au fait with intersectional feminism but they buy what they are told is fashionable and want to emulate those women they respect and admire.

My point is that from reading several race related threads on here, a lot of people are completely unwilling/unable to empathise with other women on race related issues. And I think it's a bit ridiculous to then turn around and critisize men for being unwilling/unable to empathise or care about feminist issues that don't affect them.

In all of this, I can see the parallels with drag and how - as I understand it - black women (especially lesbians) have been more critical of it than white women.

Watching RuPaul's drag race recently for the first time, it struck me that there are real parallels with historical 'blackface'. But in many ways it's even worse as the men in drag are constantly using terms like 'bitch', 'slut' and 'ho' to each other.

It would be like people nowadays doing blackface and using words like 'ngger' and 'c*n' openly for the entertainment of others. And what's more, being invited on primetime TV to do so. And being adored by all the 'liberal' activists who would be so ready to scream blue murder about anyone in blackface.

I don’t expect men to care about the more minor women’s issues like representation, the beauty standard or portrayals in the media.

I do expect them to care about rape, murder and slavery.

A lot of you are really no different to the men who go out of their way to minimise/rubbish/deny our experiences of sexism

Except that is not what is happening.......what is happening is a discussion which involves different viewpoints. I'm totally sick of ideological tyrannies - whatever their persuasion or origin.

Thank you Quarantina

I am starting to get the feeling that appropriation is one of those things that individuals "recognise when they see it," but it's really quite difficult to derive a firm set of principles that will help determine when something is appropriation and when it's cultural "fair use." (I am deliberately using intellectual property language there.) In the interests of furthering debate I'll have a go, though:

1. The intent behind the use of another group/culture's artefact is critical. If you have researched it, and the group it represents, and are using it to celebrate/draw attention to that group, you're not appropriating.

1. If you've done your research, your use of the artefact by default will not violate any sacred, spiritual, or religious feelings of the originating group.

1. You attribute your use so people who love your version can find out more about your inspiration sources, and therefore about the originating group.

1. The outcome of your use leads to more visibility and appreciation for the originating group and their culture.

I think that last one is especially important, as it gets into some of the thorny issues around racial double standards towards hairstyles, dance moves, etc. If a hairstyle is "unprofessional" on a black woman, but then everyone under the sun starts wearing it and it becomes normalised, it's a positive outcome if black women thereafter can wear their own traditional hair styles without being told they're unprofessional. If nothing changes though, it's clearly an example of appropriation.

Have black women been more critical of drag?

Drag is an offensive caricature like blackface. The article is suggesting that Selena Gomez is inappropriately emulating black people. It’s not arguing that any of these women are attempting to caricature black people.

(Feel free to pull all that apart, btw - I posted it for that reason!)

The West does promote that attitude to its own religious inheritance, so it’s no surprise that it doesn’t understand how to treat something as sacred anymore

What is sacred to one group or particular individual is not necessarily sacred to others........this is the inevitable outcome of a global, multi-cultural world, in which the individual is elevated.Free speech could also be seen as sacred.......depends on the value system.

Because of globalisation there is an increased need to assert and re-assert difference and individual group identity..........I think this is what we are seeing now...and will see even more as time goes on. Inter-sectionalist ways of thinking feed into this...as well as being a product of it.

‘The intent behind the use of another group/culture's artefact is critical. If you have researched it, and the group it represents, and are using it to celebrate/draw attention to that group, you're not appropriating.’

This isn’t how culture works though. The vast majority of people of any culture aren’t going to start researching the origins of culture like a bunch of unpaid anthropologists.